Fertility Fraud: Doctors with a God Complex

Speaker 1: (00:00)

Alright. Cool. Alright, you’re on. I’m on. Hey. Okay. Cool. I’m so glad we finally got to connect. That was getting to be, um, embarrassing for me. My hands are not, it was like we were trying to run and, you know, we’re in some kind of a Olympics course trying to connect and find the right time. So exactly. Yeah. No, and I feel like I feel so bad when that happens. Cause I feel like for every nine, you know, or every T I don’t know, for every 10, um, scheduling like plans that I have that work out. Right. There’s always one person that somehow for some reason always gets to be like the same person that I keep having to change and reschedule. And it was you this time. Well, that is okay. I’ll take it. I’ll do it. It’s kind of it’s mom life at its at its finest.  

Speaker 1: (00:54)

That’s for sure. So yeah, absolutely. Totally get it 100%. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that’s all. It was definitely all mom life related. Um, yeah, and I mean this with a lot of love, there’d be a lot easier without them. Right. A little less complicated, way less complicated. Um, awesome. So you’re here with me. Um, and you are calling me from Texas. Yes. Um, Houston really? I live in pear land. Um, but Houston, you just kind of general area, so good. All Houston, Texas. Okay. Where you or you, is that where you were born? Is your family still there? No. Um, most of my family is actually in East, Texas. I was born in Nacadocious so Texas super toxic, so. Okay. So, well, speaking of you being born, um, that is what we’re here to talk about today. Um, so you let’s, um, establish right away.  

Speaker 1: (02:01)

You’re not an NPE because you knew that you were donor conceived from the beginning. Correct. But, um, but you have a lot to offer about the, about the ways in which the ways to talk. Um, hold on, let me say that sentence again. We’re going to edit this out. Um, you, we talked. Okay. So why don’t you tell your story, tell yourself, well, um, I guess, I don’t know if it would be easier for me to kind of start from really the beginning, beginning, beginning, like before I was even a thought, but I’ve known my entire life that I was donor conceived just because my mom was always very, always very transparent with me. She always was, uh, you know, very candid and wanted to make sure that I knew and 

 Speaker 2: (03:00)

That, that was part of my conception story. And it’s something that I honestly, I treasured and to literally any human being or any non-human object that would listen to me, I would talk about it and tell, cause I was just a chatty Cathy. So do you remember, do you remember what, how, how old you were when your mom explained it to you? So as far back as I can remember being three, that is about as young as I can remember. I’m pretty sure my mom talked about it to me before then, but that’s just, that is literally, that is as far back as I can really remember my mom having these conversations with me and how did she explain it at that time? She just told me that, you know, she was, she was really having trouble getting pregnant. You know, my dad just wasn’t able to produce and they were recommended to, uh, seek fertility treatment with a doctor and at that doctor’s direction and help, they were able to conceive me. 

 Speaker 2: (04:04)

Um, and they just, they had a donor and, and that was really all. I remember my mom telling me his donor until I got older. And then, you know, she started using, you know, verbiage of eggs and sperm and I really began to really piece it all together. Um, but she always gave me a very vivid picture. And when she described what my donor looked like based on what the doctor told her, right. So I’ve just, I’ve had this image in my head, my entire life of, of what he potentially looks like just from a physique standpoint and certain features. But his face has always been when I, you know, dreamed about it or thought about it. His face has kind of been this blur. Like I just don’t know what that is. So tell me that I know a little bit, but I know the listeners, if they haven’t, um, unless they’re really avid listeners who research my guests or, or they come on well, no. 

 Speaker 2: (05:03)

So why don’t you tell me what your, your mom and dad believed that the donor looked like and who he was? So my mom always told me that, uh, her fertility doctor described the donor as you know, six, five, six, six, very, very tall, uh, red hair, loved music. And he was a medical resident at the hospital that I was born at. So he’s new. I’m like, okay, if he was a medical resident, as I got older and you know, was more educated understanding, okay, he must be a doctor now, you know, and he’s tall. He loves music. You know, this must be where I get a lot of these things from, you know, I don’t have colored eyes. Like I thought he did, but, uh, you know, that I would have because of him, but I just had this, this picture drawn out in my head of this very tall redheaded man who was a doctor in a lab, coat, love basketball and music. And that’s just, that’s, what’s stuck in my head for the last 30 years, you know? And are you tall? I’m very tall. So yes, I’m very tall. I am. I always joke. Cause people always ask me when you’re tall, they always ask you these like common questions. Like, do you play basketball? How tall are you? 

 Speaker 2: (06:23)

So I’m actually six one and a quarter. But I always tell people, I always tell people on five 13 when they asked, just because I like to see their reaction to me, like their, like their minds. So, um, but I always joke that I’m five 13, but I am 61. Quarterish so, so yeah. So that tracks with like, with a donor that was tall. Yes. Very much so. Okay. And what color is your hair? My hair is red. Okay. So this whole story is like everything’s lining up everything lined up. So, so, so you’re, you know that you are a donor conceived baby and you’ve become an adult. And now tell me what happens then. 

 Speaker 3: (07:11)

So 

 Speaker 2: (07:13)

To kind of, I guess like fast forward, um, after I had my third child, about five plus years ago, I started noticing a lot of, um, health issues and doctors were not able to give me any clear diagnosis. They were kind of just throwing random diagnosis at me. You know, they’re like, Oh, you must be diabetic. That’s why you’re losing your vision. Oh, you must be this. This is why this is happening. You know, they just were like throwing just blindly diagnosis at me. And so I actually, I had been to several doctors and I went to see a, um, a GP who was like very much into more holistic things and trying to really get to the root of the problem versus just throwing medications at you and a diagnosis that’s probably not accurate. So she, she wrote down on a piece of paper at one of my, at my visit. 

 Speaker 2: (08:04)

And she was like, she suggested that I take a humor, a commercial DNA test. And she specifically wrote 23 and me and, um, a couple of books that I should read just to kind of reset my mind and really guide me in some sort of direction to get answers. So that was in 2018, actually. So fast forward to December 20 or 2019, my brother-in-law bought my mother-in-law a commercial DNA test. She took it, got her results back at beginning of January. And she was so excited to show us all the stuff on the app. And you know, I was like, you know what, Jessica, like, why don’t you just take one? Like I hadn’t done it. You just had suggested to do so. Go ahead and done it yet. Okay. Correct. Yeah. I had just, you know, been saying, my doctor just told me to do it and I just, I put it off, put off and that’s just my nature. 

 Speaker 2: (08:56)

Like I take care of myself last, everyone else first. So of course, right. So after my mother-in-law got a results in and she was showing us and she was just so excited, I was like, you know what? I’m like, just take the stink and to test Jessica just do it. So I got 23 and me and I did ancestry and health just because that, you know, I figured, okay, this may give me some sort of answers. So early January, 2020 took the test after I got it. It literally sat on my, um, like it’s a table in our living room behind the couch, sat there for a handful of days every day. I just stared at it before I went to work after work. I’m like, Oh my God, why are you not taking? Like, I just was so apprehensive. I don’t know why. I really still don’t know why. 

 Speaker 2: (09:39)

Finally I took it to work. And one of my friends, Ashley was like, Jessica, hurry up and spit in this dang tube. Let me ship this off where you let’s do this. So the next day on my way to work, I’m like I have it with, I’m literally carrying it with me everywhere. It’s retarded. Ridiculous. Okay. So on my way to work the next day, I’m trying to get enough saliva in this dang tube to fill it up to the top of the line. Right. So I do it, put it in the box, put it all back, um, you know, download the app, register it. I take it to work. And, um, my friend Ashley, she’s like Jessica, when are you going to mail this test? Like, I’m tired of you procrastinating. Right? I was like, I finally did it this morning. I was like, I’ll go today at lunch. 

 Speaker 2: (10:21)

I’ll just make sure I make time. So that day passes. I didn’t go. Of course, it’s like four o’clock in the afternoon. I’m still busy. Hadn’t taken a lunch. Next day comes around and ashes like, give me the box. I’m taking it for you. Now took it from me and went and dropped off at the post office. So, you know, when you take the test, they give you updates. They tell you, you know, they’re like, Oh, it’s on its way. Oh, we received, you know, you get these updates. And so I was like, you know what, quit looking at it. You’ve waited 30 something years. Quit. You know, whenever the results are in, they’re going to be in, it’s not going to be in any sooner, just cause you’re checking it every five minutes. So I was like mentally checked out of it. Okay. And then fast forward to Sunday, February 23rd, uh, I’m playing in my, my youngest two kids room. 

 Speaker 2: (11:05)

My girls were playing dolls, just having, you know, normal Sunday morning PJ’s and pajama, you know, PJ’s and Barbie. And I was like, you know, I’m gonna go check my phone real quick. Uh, so I went in my bedroom to picked up my phone, just to check messages, if any missed calls from like my mom or whatnot. And as soon as I turned my phone on, I start to unlock it. And I get a notification, literally that moment from 23 and me saying my DNA results were ready and my heart stopped. Like I got, literally I could just feel from my shoulders up, gets so warm, full body hives. Like it just, it was almost like time stopped. I was just like, Oh my God. You know? And the reason I took it was for the health stuff. Right. But because I’ve known my whole life that I could potentially have siblings out there, I just, there was, I was just like, Oh, what if this is the moment? 

 Speaker 2: (12:01)

Like, what if I find my siblings? Like, what if there are siblings in here? And I, I want to back pedal just for a quick second, because there was something that happened in 2007 that made me believe that I would never find any siblings and or who my donor was. So my, um, my husband was in the Marine Corps and we were stationed in San Diego, California. Um, I was at home with my son and I was watching a friend’s little girl and we’re sitting in the floor playing. And my son’s probably like, I don’t even know, like nine, 10 months old. And there’s an episode of Oprah playing behind me. And they were talking about the donor sibling registry. And that like, literally my ears lit up when they mentioned that I was like, Oh my God. And you know, there, there’s all these people on stage. 

 Speaker 2: (12:51)

They’re talking about how they found, you know, 19 siblings and Bobbitt, yada yada, yada. So I immediately pick up the phone and I call my mom and I’m like, mom, I need my donor number. I found out that there’s this website. I can get a membership for. It was like dirt cheap. I don’t even remember like 20 bucks or something, but I need my donor number for this platform. Like that is how I’m going to be able to find who my donor is and siblings she’s just like, okay, Jessica, this is normal Workday week or weekday during business hours. And mom’s like, I’m going to call you back, hangs up, calls her doctor’s office. They answer. And they tell her, she tells them, you know, she’s looking for it to get her donor number, um, whatnot. And so they’re like, you know what? We just, you know, we don’t have those records, you know, it’s just been so longer. 

 Speaker 2: (13:38)

And at this point I’m 20 years old. So they should have had, they should have still had my mom’s records. Cause they have to keep them for like, once the offspring is 18 years old, plus three year plus seven, I think at least until I’m 21. So they told my mom that they, they don’t have her. It is. Yeah. And at the time I didn’t know that I just was like, Ugh, like it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Like that was, that was it. So she tells them, you know, she’s looking for a donor number. They say they don’t have her records. And then they, the girl who answered the phone actually told her, she said, you know, to be honest, I’m at this point in the eighties, they weren’t really keeping records of donor numbers. So, you know, even if we could find it, there would have been no name tied to it. 

 Speaker 2: (14:22)

Anyway. So there was really just, no, you know, there was no answer. So, so when my mom called me back, she was like, Jess, she was like, I, you know, unfortunately had bad news. They answered, but they don’t have my, they don’t have my records. They don’t have the donor number. They don’t have anything. So after that conversation, I really just, I honestly thought, you know, like that was it. That was my only shot to, you know, that was, that was the puzzle piece I was missing. And there was no other way to get, like to recreate this puzzle piece. Right. It’s gone. So, all right. So back to 23 and me Sunday, February 23rd, 12, 14:00 PM. And you’re right in there. I literally, I was standing beside my bed next to the nightstand. And when that notification came on, I literally just, I got weak at the knees and I hit the floor, literally hit the floor. 

 Speaker 2: (15:19)

My husband’s like, what are you doing? And I couldn’t talk, I couldn’t talk. I really like, I couldn’t think, and I literally felt like time was just standing still. And I don’t know how I got it out, but I was like, my results are. And he’s like, what, what? We’re like, what? So he climbs over the bed and I’m sitting on the floor and I opened the app and you know, you’re going through, I was looking at the ethnicity part cause I was like the first thing that when you open the app is what you see, I’m looking and I’m, I’m looking, but I’m not really looking at it. I’m just scrolling. Like, I’m really not recognizing what I’m looking at, just because my mind is in a totally different place. And so my husband’s like Jessica, get to the relatives, like where do you find? 

 Speaker 2: (16:01)

And so I scrolled past that option probably 12 times, because again, I’m, I’m scrolling, but I’m not really looking like I’m not paying attention. So finally I see the, the area where it’s like, um, I don’t remember the verbiage anyway, but it’s something about DNA relatives and I click it and it starts spinning. And it was probably a good 15 to 20 seconds, but it felt like eternity watching her, like literally just watching that little thing, just spin and spin and spin. So as soon as it, it says, loading your relatives, as soon as it stops, spinning your matches, pop up. And I just let it matched me with three half siblings. And I was just like, Oh my God, like, is this real life like, do I really have siblings? Is this, this is really it. So it matched me with two half sisters and a half brother. That’s amazing. Yeah. It’s not, it’s not amazing within like the concept of donor, um, donor clinics and donor conception, but right. 

 Speaker 2: (17:14)

I’m trying to imagine what it would be like to open it and have it, have it be siblings, just like one, two, three. Um, yeah, that would feel really, really intense. Cause most people get lots of distant cousins and things like that. So yes. To have siblings right away. And three of them would be a lot. Yeah. Yes. So that was, it was a total shock. And so my husband’s like leaning over mouth, breathing on my neck, like, Oh my God. So he immediately, he climbs back over the bed, gets his phone and he calls my mom on like on speakerphone. So I’m immediately requesting to connect with three, these three half siblings and I’m on 23. And me now, because two of the siblings have their first and last name. Of course, what do you do go to social media? Like I am, that’s where you’re going to find them. 

 Speaker 2: (18:09)

Right. So I immediately go to Facebook and search for one half sister who has a full name and a half brother who has a full name. And I immediately find them and I click friend, you know, to request their friendship. The third half sibling only had her initials, which was EDW. And so I was like, crap, how am I going to find this one? Like, right. I’m going to find my initials. Like I’m just hoping and praying to God that she will be on 23 and me and request my friendship and speak to me and, you know, talk to me. So no sooner than me requesting to connect with the three half siblings on 23 and me, and then two half siblings on Facebook, I get the re it’s accepted the friend request for the two half sisters on 23 and me, and then the sister that I found on Facebook, she accepted my friendship. 

 Speaker 2: (19:01)

And then I immediately got a friend request from a name that matched the initials. And this is all happening so fast. I felt like it was in slow Mo but it was not, it was literally, it was like, bam, bam, bam, bam. Right. So fast. And it was just like, Oh my God, is this really happening? So my mom’s on speakerphone on my husband’s phone. And he’s like, mom, Jessica got her results and she has three siblings. And my mom was like, Oh, you have got to be kidding me. And so we’re, I’m connecting with them. And as soon as the connection is made on Facebook, I’m not even looking at 23 and me anymore. At this point, I’m looking at Facebook messenger because I get a message from both of my half sisters and the first one. And I’ll have to read it to you just because as I’m reading this, I’m thinking some other things. 

 Speaker 2: (19:55)

So the first message that I get is high. Just check 23. And me, I guess, in our relationship, uh, I guess you’ve seen the relationship we’re born the same year. And so I’m like, Oh my God, we’re the same age. Like, this is so cool. And this is this sister that only has initials on 23 and me and the other sister also messaged me. But because of her circumstance, she has to remain anonymous. So I’m going to exclude part of that conversation. But, um, so I’m reading this and I’m a re I’m reading it with my eyeballs, but I’m also reading it out loud at the same time, because my mom’s on the phone and she’s like, Oh my God, we’re just, Oh my God. Oh my God is all we literally can say. And the next message that she sends me is do you know the details of our birth story? 

 Speaker 2: (20:42)

And as I begin to type, I’m thinking in my head, she just thinks, I probably don’t know I’m donor conceived because most people, I just, I’ve just kind of gotten that in my head that most people that are donor conceived don’t know like their parents didn’t tell them their parents were not as transparent with them and candid as my mom was. So as I’m trying to type, Hey, Oh my gosh. And then trying to explain, I, you know, I’m donor conceived, you know, trying to write my answer out, sorry. I have some water the wrong. So into the story, I can’t even function. You’re like, I’m holding my breath for you. 

 Speaker 2: (21:27)

It’s okay. It’s okay. Okay. Let’s go back. So you’re typing. So she says, do you know like how you were conceived and you’re thinking she’s she thinks that she’s going to tell you that your donor conceived and so you’re writing back, right. So she said, do you know the details of our birth story? So I’m trying to type, Hey first, because I haven’t even acknowledged the conversation yet. Like replied I’m like, Hey, Oh my gosh. And so I’m trying to type yes. You know, my mom had artificial insemination. I’m like trying to like write out this reply, but no sooner than I can even finish typing her next message she said was doctor. And I don’t know if I should say the name yet, your mom’s doctor. And so, um, I’m trying to answer and I said, Hey, Oh my gosh. And then I was, I’m trying to also then delete all of the, what I’ve wrote and try to reply.  

Speaker 2: (22:18)

She says, hi, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but he is also our biological father. And I, I just, I couldn’t even, like I was trying, I was trying to finish saying that out loud and just think at the same time and I read it out loud and I was trying to process what I read out loud and what I read with my eyes. And my mom is like, what? There’s no way, there’s no way, like how, and we’re both speechless at this point. Like, there’s just no way, like, that is not a thing. Right. Let’s just not that right. What I’m like, I’m like, right. Like trying to like talk myself down off this ledge. Like, what I just read is, is not correct. Like she mistyped silly, you know, like she doesn’t understand the way donor conception works. Right. So I’m like, Oh my God. 

 Speaker 2: (23:18)

And then, so then I told her because as she was typing that to me, the other half sister was also sent me literally almost the identical message. So I’m, you know how you see the notification pop up on your phone. So it’s like popping up as I’m receiving the message from this sister. So I’m like, Oh my God, like I had, you’re being like pelted with it. Yeah. I’m just like, Holy cow. Like I just, I can’t swallow what I was just fed. Like, I, I don’t, I don’t understand. And to be honest, I literally was just so speechless and my mom is on speakerphone. The, you know, my husband’s phone is in my other hand and I’m just like, I can’t even talk to my mom. I can’t, I literally cannot form words. I can’t form thoughts or phrases or feelings, anything I just was silent. 

 Speaker 2: (24:10)

So I’m just, all I can answer is, Oh my God, I think I said, Oh my God, like two or three times, honestly, before I could type anything. And she said, this may, you know, this may be too much, but we can three way call. Cause she was on the phone talking to the other sister as they’re both typing me. And I’m like, Oh, I’m like, Oh my God. So I said, yes, please. And I gave her my number and within seconds I was on the phone with both of them. Wow. And it was just, it was so surreal. Like there was so many things happening at one time. Like, you know, it wasn’t like, Oh my God, I found my siblings. It was like, Oh my God, if all my siblings, Oh my God. I found out I’m a product of fertility fraud. Oh my God. 

 Speaker 2: (24:51)

Like that’s, I think what would be such like you just got so derailed, that is literally the best way to describe it is 100% derailed because I felt like I was just all smiles and just excitement and all things happy. And I felt like someone literally just flipped a switch, turned off the lights, unplugged the power. Like, I mean, and derailed is honestly probably the best way or word to describe it. I mean, you’re absolutely 100% accurate in that description. Yeah. It was such a multilayered experience to, to be connecting with your siblings at the exact same moment, um, that you’re, you’re, you’re finding out, um, you know, the dishonest behavior to say the least, um, exactly what was happening. Um, that must’ve yeah. Yeah. Confusing. I guess it was very confusing and it was just, it was just so hard to understand like how and why. 

 Speaker 2: (25:57)

And, and, and I still, even to this day, eight months into knowing this, I still have those questions are literally asked numerous times a day. Right. You know, I just, so, but that, from the time my results came into getting on the phone with them, I mean, it was, it just, it just happens so fast. I mean, it was literally from the moment my results came in to the time I was on the phone was probably less than seven or eight minutes, less than an hour. I know it was because I got my results at 12, 14, and at seven 20, I sent her my cell phone number. And literally as soon as I press send, she, they called me on to like, they had me on three way call. Yeah. That is, that is how fast all of that went down. And I was, you know, I was just, I was just still, I was so excited about the sibling situation and being able to connect with them on the phone and hear a voice finally to this like imaginary person that I thought were people that I thought might be out there. 

 Speaker 2: (27:09)

So I was overwhelmed in that moment and the, you know, the, the whole unethical behavior. So were you able, I mean, are you, um, are you able to articulate like what you were hoping for, with siblings? Well, prior to finding out all of this, I I’ve always wanted and longed for a sibling connection because my, my brother is 17 years older than me. So I’ve grown up as, as an only child basically, because I’ve been the only, you know, the only one at home, my brother went off to the army when I was born. So I’ve always wanted that. I’ve always wanted, you know, siblings that I would, I could be close to and have a relationship. And you know, all the silly things share clothes, argue over. Boys would stay up late at night. You know, girl talk just, I mean, all those little, all those little moments that may seem like nonsense and just silly, but I’ve always wanted that because I didn’t have it. 

 Speaker 2: (28:27)

And one of my best friends that I grew up with, um, our moms are best friends and her mother is my godmother. We always told people, we were sisters all the way, look, nothing alike. She’s got dark hair, tan eyes are tan skin, green eyes. And I’m glow in the dark white, red hair, bro. You know, like light Brown eyes. But we always told people we were sisters because we were so close and we were such best friends and you know, our moms are best friends. We grew up together. So I kind of, we, we formed that. And so I always hoped for that. But with someone, you know, I was blood related to, you know, a true blood related sibling or siblings. Right. So you keep saying siblings, but really you mean sister, correct? Yeah. 

 Speaker 2: (29:10)

You’re gonna share clothes and fight over boys with your brothers, which is totally know. I mean, if I’d ever thought of a voice with brother, you know, whatever, but so, you know, this day and age anything’s possible. So, but yes. Yeah. You know, I’ve just, I’ve always wanted that, that sister relationship and bond and, you know, I, I essentially, I kind of had it with my, my best friend and I made that, but it wasn’t, you know, we weren’t really, we really sisters, you know, we were best friends. So, so to have a really real one might be as magical or more fun. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. 

 Speaker 4: (29:53)

So that, that 

 Speaker 2: (29:56)

Definitely derailed me, um, that moment, but I will say, and there’s, I mean, there, there’s so much more to this, but the, the silver lining and I don’t want the silver lining to over shadow or overpower, what’s really, you know, what really happened and what I’m continuing to fight for. But the silver lining honestly, is that I, I do have siblings and I have a lot more than I ever imagined that I would ever have. We’re currently at 10. So, um, and on the search for more, we’re pretty darn close. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s been really great having, at least my, I love all my half siblings. I do, even though three of them, I will probably never get to know, but, um, it’s been really great having my, my half sisters, especially because we talk every day. I mean, literally throughout the day, it’s like, we can’t go an hour without talking to each other. 

 Speaker 2: (31:10)

We’re in this, you know, we’re in a group message. And we, I mean, it could be about silly things. It could be about just things that we’re going through. And honestly, in the beginning, and even to this day, they have been my ride or die my rock and my mom as well. But because they, they have gone through this, they have been in this situation longer than I have. They’ve really been helpful from an emotional and psychological standpoint, to be honest, I’ve always been strong. Like my mom, my mom was very independent. My, she raised me, you know, she heard my dad divorced or my birth certificate father divorced when I was two. So it’s just me and my, me and my mom. And so she’s raised me to be independent and not depend or rely on anyone else. So having this really put a huge dent in me emotionally and psychologically, it’s been phenomenal to have them because it’s like every day you wake up and you’re like that wasn’t real, you know, like that was a bad dream, you know, and you have this emotional hangover every single day. And so it’s just nice to have that support, you know, them. And so, and to be able to, you know, not be embarrassed about having these, you know, feelings or just literally wanting to break down and cry in the middle of Kroger because it takes you, you know, so I hate that this is, you know, that they’re a part of this too, that we’re all, any of us are a part of this, but it is nice to have them to go through it together, you know? 

 Speaker 1: (32:50)

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. At least one is very close in age to you. Is the other one close in age? 

 Speaker 2: (32:56)

Yes. So, um, that half sister, um, her and I are only, let’s see four months apart. Okay. So we’re, and I’m, so I’m March 87. She’s July 87. So, and what’s crazy is we also have another half sister. Who’s also the same age as us born the same year, but it’s his, his social child. Um, so 

 Speaker 1: (33:21)

Child I’ve never heard, but I think I understand exactly what it means. So quote unquote child. 

 Speaker 2: (33:29)

Yeah. Correct. Yeah. So he, yeah, he has three social children that he had with children.  

Speaker 1: (33:34)

Yeah. 

 Speaker 2: (33:37)

That right. That he had with his, his first wife and then so far confirmed via DNA testing. We have seven illegitimate and I hate that word, but it’s, you know, I don’t even know if that’s a better way to describe it, but 

 Speaker 1: (33:51)

Right. I mean, so many of these episodes are spent speak, talking about language and that we don’t quite have the right words. So, yeah. Okay. I have questions, but I, but I, I was trying to wait till the end, but you, so you tell me when it’s ready, when it’s time for questions, you guys,  

Speaker 2: (34:04)

You can dive in, you can ask me any questions. And, and I mean, like I said, there’s, there’s so much to this story, so maybe your questions will spark more. Cause this goes deeper. This is only the outer shell, so,  

Speaker 1: (34:16)

Well, yeah. So I kind of want to get into all that. Yeah. Um, okay. So the questions so, so far, um, so the three of the three of you ladies know that your sisters, your three sisters, you, you all know about, um, about this. Um, I don’t, I mean, we can say like elite illegal or like we’ll get into that, but unethical behavior. Um, but D does all seven or all seven, was this a surprise for  

Speaker 2: (34:50)

Yes. Yes. It was a surprise for all. So the oldest of us seven that are from fertility fraud, basically the best way to describe it. Um, the oldest one, he didn’t know who his donor was until about two years ago when the half sister, I was her name’s Eve,  

Speaker 1: (35:16)

She actually called me on Facebook recently. And I was so critical today. I mean, it’s only like you’d never, ever, ever meet anybody named Eve. And, um, and so when I noticed her on Facebook recently, it was like, Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. She’s. And then when I was reading the article earlier today, I was like, Oh my God, it’s Eve it’s that Eve it’s her sister. Yes. 

 Speaker 2: (35:38)

Yes. So, uh, you know, when we originally talked, I told her, I was like, okay. So if all goes, well, you know, we’ll get to, I’ll get to have a conversation with another ear.  

Speaker 1: (35:48)

It’s a big deal. 

 Speaker 2: (35:50)

It is. It is. So, um, actually when Eve completely uncovered this whole thing is when the oldest sibling who actually he has known for over 13 years, he was donor conceived he’s he was, um, he’s older than us. Um, and he took a DNA test. And so it just kind of just sat there in limbo with no connections except for like distant cousins. So when Eve’s results came in and it connected her, um, and she had initially initially told this half sibling who she thought the donor was, who she had known for 13 years. Um, she told him, you know, this is, this is our biological father will then lo and behold, it comes that that’s not actually their biological father. And so she thought, yes,  

Speaker 1: (36:35)

Somebody else, she thought she’d bring her it out. 

 Speaker 2: (36:38)

Right. And so until, okay, correct. Yeah. So until she talked to a first cousin and, and traced it back to our actual father biological father, um, that’s when it was discovered. So all of us seven, none of, kind of have to like phrase this. Um, so almost all of them did not know they were donor conceived all of their life. Right.  

Speaker 1: (37:05)

That’s almost that says one of my separate questions. Um, I have written down. Um, so, so we can do this in a two part, two part one. Did anybody else know they were donor conceived? And the answer is basically no  

Speaker 2: (37:20)

Correct? Yes, basically. No.  

Speaker 1: (37:23)

Okay. And so they’ve all processed it in, in different ways. I’m sure. Go ahead. 

 Speaker 2: (37:32)

That wasn’t to say the boys seemed to process it differently than the girls. And I hate for it to kind of be a divide. Like the girls are processing it this way and the boys are processing this way because there’s bits and pieces that are similar, but there’s bits and pieces that are they’re polar opposites. So most of us have, we didn’t really have a father like figure in our lives. And if there was, they weren’t a good father figure or they weren’t really present. That’s interesting. So that presents quite a conflict internally when you’re processing this whole thing and trying to separate the deception behind our conception. And the fact that now you’ve found your biological father, because there’s a part of you. And I mean, there’s a part of me. That’s still, I feel a lot of guilt. I feel, you know, I feel there’s a lot of that feels robbed and I feel like they probably feel this way too robbed of, okay, now that I know who my biological father is, and for them just finding out they were donor conceived and then all this, but there’s a part of me personally, just speaking that I’m robbed.  

Speaker 2: (38:52)

Like I will never, there’s so many ways I played out meeting my biological father for the first time and they didn’t go that way. I, you know, I figured, Oh my God, like, it’s going to be this moment in the movie where I’m going to like, literally see him for the first time and take off running towards images, hug him as tight as I can hug him and look at his, look in his eyes, like listened to his voice. You know, what is his demeanor? Is he a hand talker like me? You know, like, do we have the same ears? Just trying to like find similarities in and having that beautiful moment. Right. But I’ll never have that because to him I’m a transaction. And you know, so  

Speaker 1: (39:32)

Which way go ahead. Um, I guess this is a little bit of devil’s advocate and I’m sure you’ve heard people say this, but that could happen even if it had been a legitimate donor. Right. 

 Speaker 2: (39:46)

Know that, that is very true. That is very true because I, you know, if there’s donors out there that maybe don’t ever want to have anything to do, they were just like, alright, I’m donating peace out. Like, I don’t want anything, you know, like, that’s it, that’s, that’s the extent of my relationship is I just made a donation. So yeah, you’re absolutely right. It can definitely happen. And, and it, I’m sure it is happening and it will happen. You, you know, you just have this preconceived notion of how things will go down. You know, you, you have them played out in your head and then this picture painted and absolutely. 

 Speaker 1: (40:17)

No, I agree. I think of that for sure. Um, and he, and I don’t want to jump too ahead in the story, but so does, does he does, um, this doctor at this time know that all of, you know  

Speaker 2: (40:32)

Yes, he is. He’s very aware. Absolutely. Yeah. 

 Speaker 1: (40:37)

It’s not, we all got a loving fatherly hand just to clarify. We’re not hypothetically, but really we already know that he did not, um, offer yeah. A figure now that you all know who he is. Correct.  

Speaker 2: (40:53)

Yeah. He does not want anything to do with all of us except for one the oldest one. So yeah. And I don’t even know the extent to that relationship. I just know that there has been communication, a physical meeting communication on the phone that has happened in is I think still going on, um, just since July. So, but for the rest of us, we are a transaction and that is it.  

Speaker 1: (41:24)

Yeah. I’m just, um, we talked in season one, I talked with two to donor conceived people for D for, for, for David reasons, different episodes, Carla enjoy. Um, and we laughed about it then, and I just like have to do it now is that we have to just kind of talk about sperm for a minute. Um, so, so to click, so to sort of clarify what this guy was doing, or do you know what he was doing? Um, or like, is the idea so stumbled up right, right here every time, like this is the third time I’ve done it. And I’m like, I don’t know, like sperm masturbating, 

 Speaker 2: (42:04)

Just uncomfortable. I don’t know what to add. It’s definitely a really uncomfortable conversation. Um, I will say so to kind of just give a little bit of backstory. My mom, uh, went, she started seeing this fertility doctor under the direction of her regular doctor in 1984. She went to him for two and a half years, uh, for fertility treatment doing artificial insemination. She would go two, three, four times a month. Um, at each appointment she would pay for sperm, donor sperm that she had selected from a donor catalog. So 

 Speaker 1: (42:41)

Yeah, like I want a really tall red head who loves music. Right,  

Speaker 2: (42:47)

Right. There was traits that she had picked out based on the donor catalog. And so at this time it was in the eighties, it was in the midst of the AIDS pandemic. So there were specific protocols in place, you know, brushed sperm was not allowed. It was all had to be, um, California Cryobank was the only Cryobank at the time that was allowed to access, you know, to, to basically sell their donated sperm. 

 Speaker 1: (43:10)

Yeah, I know.  

Speaker 2: (43:12)

Yeah. Okay. I mean, I already knew it was all gross and unethical, but yeah. But okay. This is a whole nother. Yeah. I’m telling you many questions and I wish all of your stuff 

 Speaker 1: (43:24)

We’re here right now. I’m suddenly getting this whole idea  

Speaker 2: (43:26)

DIA of how much I will talk. I would say, well, we should definitely do when with, uh, my other siblings, uh, because there’s some that will definitely be on here and there there’s Oh my God. It’s the best. So, so, so,  

Speaker 1: (43:41)

So as far as we’ve talked about this a little bit before, um, but, but in what part of why I wanted you to come on here was to talk about how the donor industry is very like unregulated in a lot of ways, but we’re now telling me that in 1984, there was at least one rule with fresh sperm and it needed to come from California Cryobank. Correct. They could do, um, they would, they would do screening. Thank you.  

Speaker 2: (44:12)

Yeah. So the protocols were, um, the sperm was to be the donated sperm must be frozen for a minimum of six months quarantined and then retested before then, you know, then basically shipped out and purchased. So there was a specific protocol, right? And so with him being a doctor he’s exposed on a daily basis to bloodborne pathogens. And so he was not being tested for HIV and all these other things. And because this was the AIDS pandemic, this was that, you know, these were the years that this was going on. So, um, my mom had these treatments, like I said, two, three, four times a month. She would call when her temperature was right. And, you know, she was oblating yada, yada, yada. And she would pay for a donor based on this donor catalog. And then she’d be inseminated. And to be inseminated, you, you know, you, you go into a treatment room, your you get undressed from the waist down, stirrups beat up. 

 Speaker 2: (45:05)

Your pelvic is prepped. You have to, your body temperature has to be a certain temperature. And then the sperms, you know, the specimen is then you’re inseminated with it. Well, my mom had many miscarriages during that two and a half years, many, many miscarriages. And it was, it was awful. Plus prior to that, she had lost a newborn child due to hospital neglect. And it was, my mom has just literally been through so much. So part of this, the reason then we’ll talk about it in just a minute, but I’m doing this for her. So to do a fresh donation was really not what was supposed to have been done during this period because of the AIDS pandemic. And that was one guideline is that sperm was to come from California crabbing because they were properly quarantine. They were frozen for that six month period of time and then retested or rescreened. 

 Speaker 2: (46:04)

So upon my mom’s the day that she actually had me, you know, that she conceived me June 6th, 1986. I wish I knew the time timestamps, but, um, her fertility doctor recommended, you know, he was like, he suggested let’s do a fresh donor, but, and my mom was very much against it because this is a small town they’re coming from all these small towns. Everybody knows everyone in every small town in any Texas. And she just was worried about accidental incest and you know, most people in East, Texas, they stay because your family’s there, your family farm is there. You’re, you know, like people just don’t leave. And so my mom was just very worried about that, but he, he reassured her, you know, he’s a medical resident at Nacadocious medical hospital and, uh, you know, you know, residents, they go all over. So, you know, and he, you know, he’s a doctor he’s educated, he’s, you know, six, six or six, five tall red hat, you know, gave all those, all those demographics. 

 Speaker 2: (47:06)

So yeah. So my mom finally, you know, agreed. She was like, okay, all right, well, I guess let’s do this well after research eating, after all this I’ve confirmed that Nacadocious medical center or hospital has never been a teaching hospital. Therefore there have never been medical residents at this since its existence, which goes beyond when, you know, when this was happening. So it’s just, there’s so many lies, but sperm was supposed to have come from a Cryobank and been screened. You know, that’s what the patients are consenting for. That’s what they’re, you know, that’s what they are, they’re consenting to they’re assenting to. And so he, so, 

 Speaker 1: (47:55)

So even in that moment with your mom, back in June, 

 Speaker 2: (48:01)

He was already suggesting that like, he had like a black market, right. Fresh sperm access. So already he was kind of like, well, I have this other, this. Yeah. 

 Speaker 1: (48:16)

And then, but that was like, totally 

 Speaker 2: (48:20)

Like a bold face lie to her face. Absolutely. Cause he was the black markets firm. Yep. 

 Speaker 1: (48:27)

And okay. You keep talking. 

 Speaker 2: (48:35)

I get, so honestly I get so caught up in the idea of this man. Yeah. Like I don’t understand. And like, was he in the bathroom? Was he doing it right then? Like how fresh was it? Like he gets real gross real quick. It does. And you know, to make it even more graphic is that sperm only lives outside the mucosa area for 30 minutes max. Oh no. Oh yeah. That is how fresh it was 30 minutes or less wham. Bam. Okay. Yeah. It’s so just so you know, 

 Speaker 1: (49:13)

These are the answers I wanted. 

 Speaker 2: (49:15)

Yeah. 30 minutes. Alright. Okay. Yup. Next room or his office, which was down the hall. But the thing is that the way my mom describes him and I’ll have to read you this little, you know, paragraph, my mom kind of put together after she kind of got herself together after finding all this out. But he was a very well known man. He is, he still to this day, you know, people protect him. They’re like, you know what, he’s a good Christian man. He, you know, he would do no wrong. And if he thought that that’s how it should have been done, then that’s how it should be. It’s just that kind of backwards thinking. But he, you know, you, you’re a very, in a very vulnerable place in time. Number one, just going to your gynecologist, right. Being a female. You’re, it’s a very vulnerable time. 

 Speaker 2: (50:06)

You’re again, you’re half naked from the waist down. Sometimes waist up, just open down to the front, right. You’re naked and beat her up. Your lady parts are wide open, you know? And so you, you put a lot of trust into this, this person. And if you’re going through fertility treatments, number one, at that point, you’re already, you’ve already beaten yourself to death thinking that you’re broken, something is wrong with you. Why can’t you create a child on your, why are you having to do this? You know, like there’s just all this of these other layers, again, more layers that are going on. And you’re just, you’re literally, you’re putting 100% of your dressing. You’re like, please, I just, I just want a child so bad. Please help me. You’re hopeless. There’s nothing I hadn’t. Yeah. There’s like a level of that, that I had just never considered about the, the vulnerability of sort of placing your, not only your, your physical medical trust in somebody like your dreams, like exactly. 

 Speaker 2: (51:07)

You know, and, and for, for anyone, whether it’s going to be your first child or your 10th or what, but for my mom, she has had a very traumatic upbringing, but losing a newborn shot, a newborn baby and trying, and trying and trying for 13 years to, you know, miscarriage after miscarriage or, you know, whatnot. And then, and then to finally find that there’s a, there’s possibly an answer there’s possibly a way you can have a child. Of course, there’s going to mean, you know, it’s going to science is going to intervene and you know, a medical doctor, but you’re going to be able to have that baby. You just, you just have this, like, I don’t know, but it’s, so you, you put all your trust in this person and you you’re just like, please help me, you know? Okay, whatever you think I need to do, you know, you, you put that trust into them and you don’t think that they’re going to hurt you or do something wrong to you or do something unethical. 

 Speaker 2: (52:05)

You trust them to do the right thing. They’re a doctor. They take that oath, you know? And so to, to ultimately find out that you were a number one, you were deceived, you were violated, you were lied to either. It was just, there’s just so many things. But I, I think to kind of circle back to, you know, Sony that I hate to say that there’s, there’s a way that the girls are processing. And there’s a way that the boys are processing of the siblings and this, this comes full circle to this, this, because men don’t go through what, when women go through, when it comes to pregnancy or fertility, fertility, or literally just going to a gynecologist. Yeah. You know? Yeah. They get their prostate checked, turn your head, cough, whatever. No. And I guess that’s not fun. That’s not fun. That’s vulnerable, but it’s exactly, it’s not the same. 

 Speaker 2: (52:55)

And one of my half brothers explained it to me. He’s like, you know, like I totally, I get it, Jessica, but here’s the thing, women, the moment you get that positive pregnancy test, you’re a mom. Like, you’re like, Oh my God, this is it. Like, I’m going to have a baby. You’re a mom that second, you pee on that stick. And there’s your mom, you know, but for men, it’s not that way until that baby comes out and they put eyes on it, then they’re a dad. So then that connection happens. And so that I, you know, being woman and knowing what we know and feeling what we feel, we don’t understand how they don’t understand that. But when my half brother explained it to me, that way, I’m like, you know, I get it. And it makes sense. But I still, like, I still don’t. 

 Speaker 2: (53:40)

I want you to understand this side of things, you know, and this is because your, your half-brothers recognize the unethical, the unethical element heritage, but don’t seem to be as bothered by it. Right. 100%. So all, all of the, the half brothers that are from the same circumstances as we, you know, the us seven, they don’t that it’s like, they’re like, you know what? Yeah, it was wrong, but I have you guys like it should that overshadows. And then the, all the unethical behavior is just swept under the rug. And it’s like buried in the sand kind of thing. And, and I, it doesn’t seem to, and of course I am not going to speak for anyone but myself, but it just doesn’t seem to really have done the damage to them as it does us. And I’m thankful for that because I don’t want anyone else to feel this way or be going through this or disrupt any more lives because you know, it sucks, sucks. 

 Speaker 2: (54:42)

And so I’ve said that to that mechanic, you know what, I’m, I’m actually thankful that you don’t feel this way. I, I wish you would understand on this side of things, but I’m thankful that you don’t because it fucking, so, you know, I mean, it’s just not good. It’s not okay. It’s not cool. So, but that part of it, like being a woman and going through all that, and in those vulnerable, vulnerable times, it’s, it’s a bit easier for women to understand the deception and all the pain that comes from discovering this situation versus it’s like a psychological rape kind of, it is. Yeah. I mean, with, with, with human tissue of the medical device, you know, it’s yeah. 

 Speaker 2: (55:37)

Oh, and, um, so in the past eight months, and, and you, um, since connecting with your half sisters and, um, and Eve is very active in this, um, in this sort of advocacy awareness and like legislation of this as well. Um, what kind of things have you found out about, uh, fertility fraud? Well, you mentioned earlier that this industry is just, there’s not a lot of regulations, to be honest. And that’s why there’s so many people that come from overseas or out of the country to have fertility treatment here, because in the U S especially, there’s not a lot, there’s not a lot of regulations. You know, it’s projected to be a $15.4 billion industry in the next year to two years, that’s insane, right? To have been minimal $15.4 billion, it’s projected to be a $15.4 billion industry by 2023. And right now, one of eight women struggle with fertility. 

 Speaker 2: (56:38)

And that’s not even including the LGBTQ community, that’s not even including them. And so that’s one thing that I literally have my at my jaw has hit the floor on is like, why are there not more regulations? Like, I just, I don’t understand it. Why number one, like, why should this have had to have been a law back then for people to not do it? It’s unethical. Just don’t do it. You know what I mean? Like it just to a normal human being, you just know don’t do unethical things. Like why does there have to be a law, but, but there wasn’t. And so therefore it wasn’t illegal when he was doing this. And more than 2% of doctors in the eighties were fertility. Doctors were actually doing this. I’m sorry, which is more than it was on average. In the early eighties, they were averaging about 2% of fertility doctors were doing this. We’re using their own firm. 

 Speaker 1: (57:34)

That’s so 2% of donor conceived babies in the eighties, early eighties find out that it was their doctor. They may find out it was a doctor. Okay. 

 Speaker 2: (57:49)

So those are some, it is. I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s mind blowing 2%. Doesn’t sound like a lot. Right. But in, in this industry, you know, it’s just,  

Speaker 1: (58:01)

That’s crazy. I just, so do you think, do you think that, or I, you know, maybe he’s even said, cause you, I know there’s been a little bit of connect of, uh, communication with, with your, um, biological father. Um, does he think he was doing a good thing? He, 

 Speaker 2: (58:19)

He thinks that he was first, it was a lot of lies saying it wasn’t, he didn’t do this. And then it turned into, Oh, I went back and got my donor sperm from the early seventies from UT and B Galveston. I went back and bought it in the late eighties. I went back and bought it and brought it back to East Texas. We’re like, okay, that’s, that’s not a thing. Like, once it leaves your body can’t pump the brakes, bro. Like I thought you were smart, but, um, you know, so that was, that was initially, you know, it was like, Oh, I didn’t do this. Oh, well actually I went back, he knew and got my donor sperm and I bought it and brought it back. And I was using that one or two times. So it turned in from one or two times to now because there’s seven of us that it’s like, okay, now we’ve gotten information. 

 Speaker 2: (59:12)

That’s potentially up to 15 of us, but in siblings don’t count, which in this group they’re siblings. So that’s kind of crazy. I’m like real legit siblings. And so his thing is, you know, I was just trying to do a good deed and you know, we, why are we just so ungrateful? Why don’t we just, you know, appreciate what he’s done for us. He’s given us life. It’s a major narcissistic. That was my next question was, do you think he’s a nurse when you said you went, when you said going back to get my thing, I was like, Oh, only in our system, even, even if that is a true story and I don’t believe that he did that, but no narcissists would be like, that’d be awesome. If I could go get all my sperm from Korea, my sperm is pretty great. I’m going to go back and find it. 

 Speaker 2: (01:00:04)

Yeah. So yes, 100% narcissists, uh, I, 100% think he has a God complex and just, but yeah, I mean he thinks he was doing a good deed and that we need to be grateful. That’s it? And speaking, God, God, God complex. Um, there’s also an element that you haven’t talked about. Um, I think, tell me if I’m wrong, we’ll just take this out. But, um, he was present for your birth. Oh, 100. He, yes. So when my mom went into labor with me, my, my birth certificate father actually wasn’t there. And so, um, she got admitted to the hospital. They got her in the room, they called the doctor and said, you know, you know, my mom was ready, you know, she’s in labor. And so he came in and checked her is like, you know what, I’m just going to go home, shower, eat dinner. 

 Speaker 2: (01:00:56)

And I’ll come back in a few hours, you know, cause it’s going to still going to be awhile. My mom said no sooner that he walked out of the hospital room, doors, the door shut and then reopened. And he came back in and he waited in the room with her. And I can’t remember the time, but I do know that it was longer than an hour. It was like a couple of hours that he waited in the room with her while she was in labor for her to then go into active labor to deliver me. And after my delivery, he even stayed in the room longer until my birth father got there. Yeah. That’s creepy. Very weird. And so now looking back, my mom just replaying that in her head. She’s like he knew, right. He knew that that was his child. Like no other doctor is gonna late at night going to sit in the hospital when he can go home. 

 Speaker 2: (01:01:52)

You know, like if they’re on call, they’re on call. You know, he lives like two minutes from the hospital. He’s not, you know, it’s not a big town. It’s not a big city. It’s a small town, you know? So he knew he was there. He delivered me. And he, he was there after my birth for quite a bit of time. Gosh, when I imagine being in your mom’s shoes and I, I think what comes to mind is like being like part of the violation is that she was for I’m imagining. And I’m sorry, I’m not putting words into your brother’s mouth, but I just like, she was used for his God complex. Yep. Like he used her body. I’m just trying to think of more ways to describe like the psychological violation. Like he used her body for his to feel powerful. Right. Um, so sure he could be there as a doctor and he could say he was, he was being, um, a gentleman as a doctor because your birth certificate father wasn’t there, but now knowing the truth, there’s just no way not to exactly. 

 Speaker 2: (01:03:00)

To think of that. Other layer just most, most feel confusing and in an explicable, like I just don’t you. Yeah. I don’t quite have the words, but there’s something, you know, and it’s foreign, right. It’s foreign to like, it’s like, you know, and not that death is ever easy, but it’s something that you find familiar. You know what I mean? You, you have familiar feelings like sadness and this whole thing. None of it’s familiar. There’s no playbook to like, I mean, like we joke about like, even I were like, we’re going to need to make a protocol book for every new sibling. Like here, here’s the, here’s the welcome packet, told you an orientation and all, you know, here’s the family tree so far. Yeah. Like, you know, there’s no playbook to this and, and none of this is familiar to any of us to navigate through, but we’re trying, you know, we’re just trying to navigate through every emotion and every feeling that is, you know, that is present or pops up or, you know, it’s just, it’s just, it’s an unfamiliar situation, you know, it just, and all the lies. 

 Speaker 2: (01:04:17)

And I just, I’m a very strong person. Again, my mom taught me to be strong and independent, but this breaks me from my mom. Like I just, for everything she’s been through and whether she’s been through none of that traumatic upbringing, it’s not okay. It was never okay. Whether it was illegal or not, it was 100% unethical bottom line. And the fact that he doesn’t acknowledge what he’s done, you know, a good person, a normal human being with a heart and a soul would say, you know what? I am so sorry. I’m so sorry. I did this to you. I didn’t mean harm. I was just trying to do good. And you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t illegal back then. Yeah. It was unethical. But what can I do to help like acknowledge the pain, acknowledge what you’ve done wrong and apologize. And this, this could play out totally different than it’s than it’s going to continue to play out. You know, it’s, he just refuses. He, he is not sorry. He is 100% okay. With what he did and feels he did absolutely nothing wrong. And literally has such a huge ego that even with this whole thing we’re pursuing with the Texas medical board, he doesn’t think anything’s going to happen to him. He literally has that large of an ego that he’s like nothing. I’m good. I’m golden. Wow. 

 Speaker 2: (01:05:50)

Wow. Wow. And, um, what, um, and, and have you have you and your siblings connected with other, um, other donor conceived, um, people who are born in fertility, fraud, fraud, and are working on that kind of thing. Have you guys, do you guys have your own sort of like networking communities of people working on things? Yes. Unfortunately it’s actually a large community, you know, it’s unfortunately it is. And so, um, you know, connecting with them and linking arms with this legislative stuff that we’re pursuing. It’s been therapeutic, to be honest, I hate to say that in this whole circumstance, but again, it’s, it’s all unfamiliar for us, but to be able to talk to someone who’s in the same boat as you is kinda nice, I mean, you know, it’s yeah. I mean, that’s huge. And I think having a, having a project, um, can be incredibly 

 Speaker 1: (01:06:50)

I’m good. 

 Speaker 2: (01:06:51)

Get busy, get better. Yeah, exactly. And you know, one thing with this is that, and again, I’m only going to speak for myself is, and I know that my mom is not, you know, not taking this well, you know, but I mean, I’m suffering. And at first I was really hesitant. I’m a natural share. Like I’m a social media junkie. I love social media. I love sharing all the things in my life. Cause my kids are crazy. My life is wild and chaotic. Like I just, I’m a natural Cher. So when I found this out, I’m like, Oh my God. Like, you know, like I, there, um, you know, again, the loss for words, and I’m like, I’m not, I’m not going to share this. Like, this is, this is dark. This is evil. And that, that’s not me. I’m the cheery one. I’m the one at the morning huddle at work.  

Speaker 2: (01:07:43)

Everybody’s like pipe down, Jessica, bring it down a notch. You’re up here, we’re down here. We got in gutter today. Start like, I’m that natural cheerleader, just, you know, silly, fun all the time. But this has broken me. This is literally brought me into darkness and I hate it. I, I’m not, I’m not meaning more. I I’m, but if I don’t acknowledge that trauma, I’ll never be able to eat. I’ll never be able to heal. And so I, I share and I, all my people, my friends and family that follow me and people that don’t know me, but follow me whenever I finally decided that I’m going to do this, I’m going to share all of this. I, I repeat myself. I taught me, you know, I promised I would share the good, the bad, the ugly stuff that I don’t want to talk about.  

Speaker 2: (01:08:34)

Stuff that, you know, it’s just, it’s embarrassing. You know, I don’t even know if embarrassing is the right word, but, but being able to, yeah. So being able to do that, it’s hard. It’s so hard, but uh, you know, writing my feelings down or just taking like short little clips, like on my way, home from work, when I have that moment of silence, like, how am I feeling today? Like what is going through my head? Like, and sharing that, even though people are probably like, Oh my God, here we go again with fertility, you know, it’s like, I find, I find it therapeutic to share my feelings and, and helps me to kind of filter through what I’m feeling versus bottling it up and letting it fester and turn into something, you know, worse. So that, that has been very therapeutic for me is, is sharing that with my friends and family and complete strangers. But I think it’s important. And I hope that, you know, even if I could just help one person to get through this, if they’re, this is, you know, their new circumstance or they’ve been going through it, then I’ve, you know, then I, it makes me feel better about sharing, you know, what, I’m, what I’m going through and, and my siblings too. Yeah. Yeah. I think somebody, um, somebody said recently,  

Speaker 1: (01:09:57)

Um, my story becomes the next person’s guide book, survival guide, survival guide. Yes. And, um, that’s, that’s been going around lately and that really resonates really strongly with me. Um, and it, it sounds like that’s, that’s something that’s also 

Speaker 2: (01:10:15)

Absolutely.  

Speaker 1: (01:10:16)

So on that if somebody is hearing this story right now, um, and wants to reach out or find more about the fertility fraud committee,  

Speaker 2: (01:10:27)

What do you suggest you do? Is there other websites where all just hashtags is going to be powerful? But so there, there are several groups on Facebook, um, there’s, uh, donor deceived groups, um, Facebook, you can just type in donor deceived. Uh, there’s also, um, a webpage that actually Tracy and our donor deceived community has, uh, put together. And I believe I’m pulling it up right now. I believe it’s donor deceived.com. And I’m just going to type that in to make sure that I have that correct, but I believe it is donor or maybe donor deceive.org. I believe that that’s actually correct, but yeah. Donor deceive.org. And, um, so this, this is a great resource for, um, you know, if you’re just discovering or you’ve known, but you haven’t really dove deep into it. It gives you a lot of, um, a lot of information on, you know, donor doctor fraud and, you know, permission, fraud, and large, like these, you know, super donors.  

Speaker 2: (01:11:40)

You’ve got these large donor group siblings that are, you know, 40, 50, 80, a hundred, 200 group, you know, siblings. Um, so there’s, there’s some really good information on there. And really the, the Facebook groups are really great as well, because then you can interact and ask questions and, you know, it kinda, it gives you again, more people in your boat to, to relate to and, and really help you kind of filter through all this and, and navigate through all the feelings and emotions that come along with this, because you will feel if you’re anything like me, any and all emotions that are humanly possible at any given moment at any given day. And, you know, like I mentioned earlier, you wake up feeling like you have an emotional hangover and yet a horrible dream. You’re like, it’s not real. Or you’re like waiting for Ashton Kutcher, jump out and be like, you’re on candid camera, like are just waiting for that moment because you’re like, there is no way this is my life.  

Speaker 2: (01:12:41)

There’s no way this is my circumstance. It just, there’s just no way. So, but those, those are great resources, 100% great resources for those in the same situation. Amazing. Um, and, um, you said your mom is struggling with all of this. Um, and understandably is there, is there, um, is the same community able to support the mothers? Yeah, so, um, I believe there are parents in there. There’s also another group on Facebook and it’s, um, I need to look it up, but it is, it’s like recipient parents. Okay. It’s a recipient parents group and, um, I’ll have to look up the name of it, but, but honestly they can go on Facebook and surgeon recipient, parent, you know, of donor or artificial insemination, but I believe it starts with re recipient parents. Okay. Um, on there. So it’s, that’s a great area, you know, to be in for parents for those like my mom, and I’m hoping there’s other groups out there. Um, I just really haven’t, to be honest, dove that deep into searching for groups beyond what I’m in right now. Um, I was just, I was just curious. I never, I could have probably sat here and written out, I dunno, 40 different phrases 

 Speaker 1: (01:14:12)

For how to describe what your mother was. And I would never have come up with recipient parent, so you just wouldn’t know. Wow. Um, okay. And can I, um, w um, in my, uh, in my intro, which I’ll do later, can I talk about the New York post article? Absolutely. Yeah. Um, linked to that and stuff. Yeah. New York posts. And I mean, it’s an, um, several other platforms as well, Texas observer, I news UK. Um, I mean, that’s, uh, tons of leaks, sank links, I can say to me. Yeah. Yeah. I’ll send them to you. Yeah. But definitely a New York post did a story, uh, which was great. It was actually shocking that they had someone come down during COVID too. So that was, that was kind of, um, fun, I guess. Uh, but yes, absolutely. Yeah. It’s, again, everything just seems so surreal. It’s just like, I’m just repo, you know, I’m just retelling something from a movie, but it’s my life. 

 Speaker 1: (01:15:24)

So I’m like feel, yeah, exactly. So, yes, absolutely. You’re more than welcome to share. Okay, cool. Wow. Thank you so much, Jessica. I feel like you have shed light on something that is just, I mean, similar to the NPE NPE phenomenon, like this is actually something very common and is another way that DNA testing is like turning people’s worlds upside down. Um, it’s like, uh, it’s also this sort of next layer, other layer it’s not next, but it’s, um, another layer and it’s, um, yeah, it’s uncomfortable to say the least. So thank you so much for talking to me about it. I really appreciate you allowing me to, I just, I feel like if we can get our, you know, our story out as far and as wide as possible that, you know, again, if it can even just help one person, you know, filter through all this and navigate through it, then I’m just grateful that it, you know, at least one person has been able to, you know, be helped. 

 Speaker 1: (01:16:30)

So, yeah, no, I, um, I am 100% sure that at least one person will be helped. Um, and I’m, I’m, I’m actually sure it will be more, but, um, but, but I can, I can definitely tell you one, um, I mean, even me, like, I mean, it’s like depends on your definition of helping, but I mean, I just feel like my mind has been, um, really blown open tonight about, about, more about this industry and the idea, and I’m just having this, um, this whole separate sort of wheel going on in my brain right now about thinking about the vulnerability of fertility, um, how much, how much of an industry that’s built on people wanting something so bad that they they’ll do anything. Um, yep. Yeah. So interesting. Yeah. Thank you so much. So, yeah. And, and, um, I mean, I’ll talk about this later anyway, but, um, like we actually didn’t even talk, we didn’t even talk about half your story. 

 Speaker 1: (01:17:32)

Like, I mean, I was like, yes, I made those links so I could post them to go read all the details so they can get everything, but, um, yeah, but it’s are really late for you there in Texas. Um, so thank you for giving me a late night on a school night and, um, I will be in touch with you. It will be very soon that this comes out. Awesome. Thank you. And I will say just, I really appreciate your time, but one, one word of advice I will give, just because I was just thinking this in my head is that 

 Speaker 1: (01:18:10)

If this is something they’re uncovering because of a DNA test or because their parent’s family decided to tell them, but just to take it slow or as fast as you’re comfortable with, and really like lean into to those around you, because it’s really the only way you’re really going to be able to get through it and to not let it bottle up there, there’s so much secrecy behind fertility treatments and, you know, being donor conceived. And so just lean into those who support you and who are, you know, around you. And if, if you’re trying to lean in and people aren’t supporting you lean in a different direction because I’ve been hurt by so much, so much of my family through all this, because, you know, I was told to keep my mouth shut and to quit stirring up trouble. And the way I’ve been treated is just, I just, I never would have imagined that I would have been treated this way and the victim shaming that comes along with it. So lean into those who support you and you know, who love you. And if you’re leaning in that direction and they don’t lean another direction, you know, because it’s just, it’s hard enough. And then to get pushback and ugly words and things thrown your way, it’s, it doesn’t make it any easier. So just take it as slow or as fast as you need to as you’re comfortable. 

 Speaker 1: (01:20:01)

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for saying that. Um, I think that, that that’s excellent advice, um, in this community, um, and, and the broader community to the two, the two big pieces, which are to take it slow. And I love the way you phrase that to lean in to the people that support you. And if they’re not supporting you lean a different direction. Um, I love that. Yeah. Thank you so much for, thank you. I really appreciate you listening and letting me talk again. It’s super therapeutic to be able to talk about it, so I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Um, thank you. Well, I will be in touch with you. Send me all those links. Okay, perfect. I will. And, um, yeah, we’ll get this. We’ll get this ball rolling. You’ll probably be up within three weeks or something like that, but I’ll be in touch. Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Keep in touch. Okay, Jessica. Awesome. Thanks. Have a great night. You too. Bye bye.