Ring of Fire: Author Cory Goodrich

Speaker 1: (00:00)

I’m going to start recording there. Oh, thank you for your patience. I’m so sorry that, that took a few minutes course. How many kids do you have with three? Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s a lot in 2021. Um, but I always say this, but like I have three, but I’m cheating a little bit because one of the oldest one lives with her dad. So, so like my day to day, every morning situation is only two that’s still, but numbered. Right, right, right. And it doesn’t mean that the older one isn’t calling me or texting me. Oh yeah. Yeah. I know you play music. I’m really excited to talk. Thank you so much for getting on, on the, on the line with me. I’m going to go ahead and hit record so that video’s recording. If that’s okay with you, we’re glad that you put on makeup  

Speaker 2: (00:53)

And took a shower just for you. So yeah, 

 Speaker 1: (00:58)

I have like all these I have, I always have all these fantasies of like what podcasting is going to be. And they, they come crap. Like I’m like crashing in reality every single day. Um, yeah. That’s yeah, I haven’t, I didn’t, I haven’t showered. I thought, well, I’ll do video. So I should really all that would be a good excuse to Nope. Nope. Not ready cast. You really don’t have to show anybody. Right. It’s really unfair that they’re asking us for video now, because that was the glory of the podcasting experience was that so who was asking for video, let the networks and the site Geist, and some people want to know about podcasts and they just go to YouTube and want to watch the podcast. Interesting. I guess that’s a whole market. I will just see. I said I would try and pretty much anything, so, yep. And it actually is more fun to see you to be honest. It’s funny though, because  

Speaker 2: (01:55)

I forget where to look like a zoom calls, you know, I’m like, Oh, am I looking at me? How do I look? 

 Speaker 1: (02:00)

Yep, no, I have a friend. Who’s a, she’s a like a dialect coach and S and like a coach about speaking. And she had a whole thing about like training, training yourself to stare at the green light. And I just can’t do it. I just, I’m looking in your eyes, but then I’m not looking at you right now. I try and raise, I try and raise the visual so that your eyes are as close to the green light as possible. I’m just going to let my cat out of the room is that course.  

Speaker 3: (02:28)

That’s the door. Hang on  

Speaker 2: (02:35)

These doors on my studio so that I could have some privacy.  

Speaker 1: (02:39)

Now, the cat, my kids, my kids. Do you have,  

Speaker 2: (02:46)

I have one in college right now and then one in high school.  

Speaker 1: (02:49)

Oh, cool. Hybrid today. Right. Are you guys in, where are you located in Wheaton? So a suburb of Chicago. Okay. I saw, I mean, I saw that you were, um, that a lot of your life was in Chicago, but I wasn’t sure if you were still there. Yep. Cool. Wheaton. And what college is your older one at 

 Speaker 2: (03:08)

St. Louis university. She’s studying to be a nurse. I know. 

 Speaker 1: (03:13)

Yeah. Oh, that’s so good. That’s nurses are in high demand right now. Right? I know. And it’s about this. You feel validated and intimidated by this situation, 

 Speaker 2: (03:23)

But it’s scary too. I mean, she’s only a sophomore, but she’s doing the goals right now. So she, luckily was one of the first people vaccinated because she’ll be sort of on the front lines. It makes us feel better. But, um, you know, it’s scary. 

 Speaker 1: (03:36)

Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Cool. Let’s talk about you being an NPE. What would you like? Oh my gosh. I want to know everything. Um, I do want you to get a little bit closer to your microphone. Okay. Yep. How’s that? Yeah. Ooh, cool nails. Thank you. See, those are the things the podcast people want. Now they want to know about our nails. 

 Speaker 2: (03:59)

Well, and I just got my hair dyed, so I won’t sacrifice hair, nails, terribly shallow of me. We all have our limits. 

 Speaker 1: (04:13)

So, um, let’s okay. So I don’t even know where to start, but, so where do you usually start? When people ask you what, you know, what’s your story or when you’re, you know, what’s your like cocktail party version? 

 Speaker 2: (04:27)

I have many versions. I have the long version and capsulated. Would you like a medium version? Maybe a medium version. I’ll see if I can. Um, so everything is in the book, not everything, but a lot. But, um, my story is, so I was born in Wilmington, Delaware many, many years ago in the late sixties. And, um, you know, that was kind of the era of swingers and, and, and stuff. I know this now, but, but I, my parents, my mother’s Ernie and my father was Tom. And, uh, they were divorced when I was seven. And then we moved to Michigan. She married my stepfather, Jim, you really need a chart with all of this, making a chart as we speak. So she married Jim, we moved to Michigan. Um, my mother, my stepfather and I, we sort of had a contentious relationship. Um, I have three siblings who are considerably older than me, 12, 11, and seven years older. Okay. Yes. Um, and I could never really get an answer as to why my mom and dad divorced. Um, and so over the years when I was in college, we would fight a lot because I was kind of unhappy in Michigan and didn’t really understand why we had, you know, why she had left Delaware and my dad and our, my home, her home. That’s where she was. 

 Speaker 1: (05:43)

Were you in touch with Tom this during this 

 Speaker 2: (05:45)

Time at home? Every summer. And I spent, I spent the summer with him, but he was also 56 when I was born. So he’s also older. Yeah, he was older and it was a different time too, where quite as involved in their lives as they are now. So, um, I loved my dad. He was a wonderful man, but he wouldn’t, he never said a bad word about my mother. Just nobody talked about anything. And as is so common with us NPS, we all have this sense or most of us have a sense of being different or something being off, but not really understanding what it is. Um, I found a picture when I was about maybe 15 or 16. I was with my mom. Um, and I found this picture of a man holding me as a baby. I was nine and nine and a half months old. And I asked her who that was at the time. And she said, Oh, that’s an old friend. Uh, your father was really jealous of him. I will never forgive Tom for what he did to him. 

 Speaker 2: (06:41)

Oh, geez, mom, why don’t you drop drama bomb. And that’s my mom. And then she said, I fallen onto silent. Sorry, just turn it to be that’s okay. Continue. Sorry. So, um, she said, well, your father was jealous of him. And he had him transferred down South and he had a heart attack and he died. Oh, geez. You know, 15, 16. Okay. That’s wow. You know, never, never talked about it since over the years. I kept looking for that picture again, but I could never find it. I had all these clues and all these things, but I can never, I remember being in a hotel room with my mom when I was maybe two or three. I remember the carpet. I remember the doors, you know, the doors in between hotel rooms. Yeah. They were so cool. 

 Speaker 2: (07:30)

That’s one of the first things I would do is go check that out, make sure they’re locked. And I remember that, um, I would ask my sister if she knew why my parents got divorced. And she said, Oh, I don’t know I was in college. I don’t remember anything. And so nobody would talk about it. I look a little bit different. I’m shorter than everybody I’m darker than everybody. Um, you know, so we would joke. I would joke about being the milkman’s kid and they everybody’s laughs and everything. And so fast forward, I eventually, after I have children, I decided I do not want to have a contentious relationship with my mother anymore. I want to get along. I want her to know her grandchildren. And so we stopped fighting. We just sort of let everything slide. Um, and then in 2017, she told me that she had to have open heart surgery. 

 Speaker 2: (08:13)

So I went to Arizona to be with her the week before her surgery. And, um, she was so frail by this point, I did not want to upset her at all. I kind of was asking her questions about her life. And I always got non-answers, you know, she really wouldn’t talk very much about it. She was very elusive and mysterious. She had, she had, um, on her birth certificate, she has one middle name and on her driver’s license, she has another middle name and she never would tell us a story. It’s like little things like how that happened. Why, how did it go from Emma and Eileen? You know, just that she just wouldn’t tell us. So, um, after she had the surgery, she, uh, before she had the surgery, though, we went out to get, um, a robe for her. And I thought I’ve got to do this. I’ve got to ask her one more time because I don’t know what’s going to happen. Um, uh, why did you and dad get divorced? And she said, well, I had an affair. You knew that? Oh, no, I sorta didn’t know that I kind 

 Speaker 1: (09:11)

Of knew, but she said, yeah, 

 Speaker 2: (09:14)

His wife came to the house and she was very well-dressed and, um, very poised. And she asked me not to take her husband. And, um, I was very impressed with her and I said, well, what did you do? Did you leave him alone? She said, yes. And then the conversation ended. And at this point she’s so sick at this point. I’m like, I’m not going to deal with that, you know? Yeah. And she wouldn’t tell me anyway, you know, I knew if I pushed, you would get angry. 

 Speaker 1: (09:42)

What was going through your mind during that time, when she called you this little, like this truncated version of 

 Speaker 2: (09:49)

I’m thinking I’m clocking all these things, but I did not put it together 

 Speaker 1: (09:55)

Like hindsight right now. Right? Of course 

 Speaker 2: (09:58)

You could say, why didn’t I push? All I had to do was just talk a little bit more, but I didn’t, whether I was afraid that I knew the truth or, or that I just pushed it aside. I’m not really sure. Um, but, and, and again was scared to upset her. So, um, so she has her surgery. She eventually passes away from the, from the surgery and, uh, the day after she died on October 13th, Friday, October 13th, which I find hilarious. 

 Speaker 1: (10:25)

So you never, sorry. Did she ever, so did she, she went into the surgery and passed away? Yes. It took about a week after the surgery. Right. But it just didn’t go. Okay, didn’t go. Well, she was 89. I mean, we didn’t expect her really, to me, it would have been really hard but long shot. Okay. Okay. So Friday the 13th, it’s October 13th or black cats everywhere, which is humbling down the street, Arizona. So there are no autumn leaves, tumbleweeds, maybe. Okay. 

 Speaker 2: (11:01)

Going through her things, because I want to find this picture. I say that I want to find stuff for her Memorial, um, her, her celebration of life, but I secretly want to find this picture, you know? So we’re going through the things and she has categorized everything. There is an envelope of her performing years when she was in an Andrew sisters type group, never seen these pictures or reviews or articles. There was a whole photo album of her first marriage had never seen any of these, a whole photo album of, you know, my dad and, and those kids. So all, you know, uh, all categorized, every letter, Jim told me my stepfather that, uh, she had shredded all the letters from Tom and from him, from Jim too. But in one envelope, there was, uh, there were two, three letters and two pictures, and one of those pictures was the man holding me and there a second shot of that. So I’m like, okay, I’m going to get back to these. I’m going to read these letters. What are these two letters she’s kept here and there from my father, Tom to her shortly before he died in 1990. And they’re both letters that state how wonderful I was and how proud he was. And I know that she has kept these two specific letters so that I will know that Tom loved me. Yeah. That’s why they’re there. There’s only two of them 

Speaker 1: (12:14)

Bumps. Yeah. 

 Speaker 2: (12:17)

It was a third letter that I did not know that my brother took, you know, that he hid away. But I looked at this picture and I said to Dan Suzy, Oh, is this guy, did I tell you the story about what mama said in the car about the affair? And, and you know about this, you guys are all older. Is this the guy? And my poor brother just turns white. And he said, yeah, how much do you want to know? Like, Oh no. Oh  

Speaker 1: (12:39)

No. Oh, there’s more everything. 

 Speaker 2: (12:42)

And he said, well, um, you know, we used to be called daddy, Don. And I knew instantly everything that I had not filled in in the past just kind of went into telescoping focus. And, um, uh, and I knew, and I said, is he my real father? And he said, yeah, we think so. So I’m reeling. I’m absolutely reeling because all the pieces have sort of come together at this moment. But I’m, at this point, I will say my age at the time I was 51 years old. This is a long time to go without knowing who your real, 

 Speaker 1: (13:15)

It’s a long time. And it’s a long time for siblings to be discussing it amongst themselves. 

 Speaker 2: (13:21)

The short story after that is that everybody knew everyone didn’t know what to say. It’s not their fault. But, um, my mother didn’t know what to say. My stepfather didn’t know what to say. Um, I ended up finding my biological father. I found his obituary. He had died, not when my mother said way back then, you know? Um, but he was transferred. 

 Speaker 1: (13:41)

I have a broken heart from Tom vengeance transferring him, but, 

 Speaker 2: (13:46)

But he died in 2016. So he died the year before my mother. So I would have had a chance to meet him the third letter that, um, which I won’t talk about what’s in it, but it was a letter to my mother, uh, that was written when I was about 10 years old, basically admitting that I was his child and that, you know, how much he loved her. And, um, so I knew that this man was actually my father. Um, and, uh, he had died recently and, um, I just spiraled for three years trying to put the pieces together, thinking, am I Goodrich? Or am I Garnette? You know what part of my deal, what part of my DNA is different from my family? Oh my gosh, I don’t have full siblings anymore. I have half siblings. Everybody’s I have sibling. I ended up finding, um, a brother who is 10 years younger than me, who was Don’s from a second marriage. And I reached out to him and he, we took a DNA, DNA test and confirmed that we are indeed siblings. So I Dawn’s child. Yeah. And this man, this, this brother of mine is my best friend now. 

 Speaker 1: (14:48)

Oh, unbelievable gift that came out. It, um, 

 Speaker 2: (14:52)

I have also after three years of turmoil and to be honest, was very worried about my mental health there. I had a lot of suicidal ideation. Um, I had a lot of people saying your father still was still your father and, and therapists who didn’t really acknowledge the true trauma that comes with this discovery and says, Oh, everybody did this to protect you. You know? And then that makes you feel more ashamed for struggling with it. Right? So after three years of this, I can finally say, um, and this is through art therapy and through writing my memoir through writing folk song. And, um, and my brother I’ve traveled to Thailand and Bali and Italy and Spain with him and have forged this beautiful, loving relationship with this with my brother. I can finally say that I am the person I was always meant to be. 

 Speaker 2: (15:42)

And while it was difficult to go through the struggle for sure. And kind of wish I can take it back. I wouldn’t be who I am today. And I am so profoundly grateful for that. The process of writing the book, um, forced me to put myself in my mother’s shoes. I’m, I’m an actress. So I’m kind of used to doing that anyway. And I sort of can go into a character and find their motivations and what drives them. And, um, and so it was actually an incredible asset through this, to be able to say, okay, what was the timeline? What, what was it like in the sixties? What were family saying about my mother and her relationship with this man? And, and it wasn’t just an, a fling, it was a longstanding relationship and I was conceived intentionally. So what did that do to my phone on there? 

 Speaker 2: (16:29)

You know, like, like there’s so much blame for the mothers in these situations. There’s, there are a lot of people who have very narcissistic mothers and it’s very hurtful and very painful, but there’s also another side to it too. There’s if I put myself in my mother’s shoes, I don’t know that I would have done anything differently, at least in that time. So I gained through writing the book. I grant gained a tremendous amount of empathy and sympathy for her and for my father and my family. So, um, in the end I’m grateful. Believe it or not. 

 Speaker 1: (17:01)

Yeah. Wow. That’s yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s quite the journey. Yeah. Go to go from, to go from yeah. Sh shock, shock and shock and crisis and depression all the way to gratefulness. That’s really cool. That’s really lovely. Yeah, go ahead. 

 Speaker 2: (17:20)

I would, I would love it if there was more, um, study on therapy for NPS, because I think we are sort of underrepresented because people don’t know. I mean, I have had friends who then I’ve read the book and said, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. I shouldn’t have said this to you. I’m like, how would you know, you, you, it’s not your fault unless you’re in our shoes, you have no idea what this feels like or how to react. And the things that people say are very, you know, very understandable, but then become really hurtful to us NPS. But I don’t blame them. No. 

 Speaker 1: (17:52)

Yeah. It’s like this collision of modern technology that brings us the, the trauma itself or the crisis itself or the existential experience. But then it’s like these old school ideas colliding of this whole like, well, your dad is your dad and whoever loves you, loves you. And, um, they were just, everybody was just doing their best and all those things. Um, if even people that, that I would think would never say that, say that kind of thing, you would think that, but I think we don’t even know how conditioned we are. Right. We’ll have certain understandings of things. Um, and this like incredibly modern phenomenon is really, um, really like shaking that up in a, in a way that, that we’d know nobody could have seen coming.  

Speaker 4: (18:38)

Right. And all those things are true to my dad. 

 Speaker 2: (18:42)

I am grateful to the family that took me in, but that can exist alongside with the pain of not knowing who my biological father is. And wondering if he’s my father, those things exist concurrently. And you know, and I am Goodrich and Garnette and happy to take old names. I mean, literally take the name. 

 Speaker 1: (19:03)

Some, some people do that. You have not done that. Yeah. I think, I think that like integration of, of more than one thing is, is a concept we need to work on all around, um, of this. You can hold, you can hold a lot of things. You can hold both. Right. So you can hold stories, dark and light and right, right. Good and bad. 

 Speaker 2: (19:25)

We need both. We need both. I tell my husband, I could be mad as hell at you and still love you. 

 Speaker 1: (19:31)

Right? Yeah. Well, it’s not even, and not only do we need them, but we have them, it is a fat. So like, so acknowledging them and learning how to, to manage that balance. Um, I think would be good for everyone regardless of the situation, but it really, um, becomes real stark in the NPE community when you, when you first get thrust into it. Right. Depending on yeah. And we need resources, so many resources. Yeah.  

Speaker 2: (19:59)

I like to say that there’s room in the playground for all of us and for all of these stories, because the more we hear and the more we talk about it and the more that other people hear about it and talk about it, the more empathy and understanding we can all have. And so Sherry, I thank you for what you do because sharing these stories is so important to people who are going through it. 

Speaker 1: (20:18)

So, yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been so important to me. It’s been so much a part of my own journey, um, to talk with people. Cause it’s the only time I talk about it with anybody. Right. You know, 

Speaker 2: (20:30)

Do you have people, do you have friends that you talked to or?  

Speaker 1: (20:33)

Well, all my, all my friends, but, um, you know, I’m pretty, I’m pretty, I’m pretty open about, I mean, the podcast is everyone knows about the podcast, so it’s pretty open, but, um, but it’s just a different experience to talk about it with somebody who gets it. It’s just different it’s in and they, and I’ve gone through this isn’t I don’t mean this to sound. Um, uh, like anyone should feel sorry for me, but this isn’t the only trauma I’ve ever been through. Right. And yet I’m still surprised at how comforting it is to have that moment with someone who, who understands it. Right. Um, even though I know that that’s, you know, I’m a therapist, like I, I know about the power of, um, you know, empathy and the power of me too, and, and the power of connection and community, but I still am the most touched by the, the experience I’ve had talking with other people, right. For this particular trauma. It’s like, Hey, somebody who gets me,  

Speaker 2: (21:30)

Uh, trauma compounds, first of all. And so the discovery for you or for any of us, isn’t the only trauma. There was the trauma of the secrets. In fact, I think add is the trauma that it is actually more damaging than the biological, you know, the sperm or the fact that people keep secrets and, you know, dismantling that and dismantling the shame. There’s so much shame and stigma around the B word, the bastard word, and, and words that are phrases that are in our vernacular that we don’t even think about that I now create.  

Speaker 1: (22:06)

When I hear, I know we’re never going to stop learning, 

 Speaker 2: (22:12)

You stop learning, we’re dead. So, you know, embrace it.  

Speaker 1: (22:17)

Um, can you talk, can you talk about your experience of, um, deciding to, to write the memoir, um, and how like creativity has helped your healing can, uh, our, you know, are you, as you said, you mentioned art therapy. You’re also an actor. Storytelling is so powerful. Can you talk about that?  

Speaker 2: (22:35)

Yeah. So, um, I am, I am an actress and I am a singer and have always happened, um, which I get from my mom, I presume. But, um, she asked me once she said, do you want to paint just out of the blue? And I’m like, no, I would suck at that. I would never want to paint. So I come to find out that my biological father was a painter.  

Speaker 1: (22:57)

Oh, she was feeling it out, totally feeling it out. She was mad in an art class. Right. So, Oh, 

 Speaker 2: (23:05)

I didn’t even know my mother painted, you know, so  

Speaker 1: (23:08)

Probably read the book. Right. And we would know that if we read the book, we find out about our class. Okay. Yeah.  

Speaker 2: (23:15)

But, um, but so I started painting after I found out just to kind of see, because I, I started by doing cartoons and my brother, my new brother has sort of a famous, um, cartoon thing with Reddit. And so I was like, Oh, maybe I could draw. And I started drawing depression. I started drawing the, um, the evil monster that the dark monster that was kind of haunting me. And he’s like, you’re onto something here, keep doing it. So then I moved to painting and when I started painting, I can’t explain it. I knew what to do. I had picked up a paint brush in my life. I didn’t take classes. I didn’t go to YouTube. I just knew what to do, whether it’s genetic memory, whether it’s my father and my ghosty father painting through me, or just some hidden, latent talent that I didn’t know I had, um, it was just there and I never studied. 

 Speaker 2: (24:01)

And I started painting and now three years later, I sell paintings and that’s another source of creativity for me. So I’m doing this, which is just like, I feel usually I write songs, but I could not write a song to save my soul, all this. So, so this is pouring out in the meantime I had started journaling, um, because I didn’t, I wanted to remember what happened. I wanted to remember the details and I knew I was going to forget it. So, um, I started writing these stories about my mother and I would always kind of come to a conclusion, um, or I’d be thinking about something and it would bring up some childhood memory. And so I would relate somehow these two didn’t know what I was going to do with it. I thought maybe it would be a one woman show. Maybe it would be songs. I wasn’t sure, but it was helping me just to kind of get it out and to be able to, every time I would write it, it became a story that I could tell rather than just being pain. If that makes sense.  

Speaker 1: (24:51)

No, absolutely. 

 Speaker 2: (24:54)

Eventually when the pandemic hits and the theaters are all closed and, uh, I reached out to an editor that my friend had suggested. And, um, that’s a funny story too, because we found out after the fact that she was born in Wilmington, Delaware, she lived maybe two miles from me. 

 Speaker 1: (25:11)

Oh, wow. We went on tours. 

 Speaker 5: (25:13)

She, her father, her father 

 Speaker 2: (25:15)

Worked with my biological father. No crazy. Right. 

 Speaker 1: (25:20)

That is so wild. I love that stuff. 

 Speaker 2: (25:24)

So, and I’m like, okay, we have to work together. So she, I hired her as an editor. And then she said, Hey, I am, I want to publish this book for you. So, um, so she ended up, uh, publishing like, Oh, shoot. That means I actually have to finish it. And 

 Speaker 1: (25:38)

Totally that means for this creativity, wait a minute thing. I have to make sure to be organized or something. 

 Speaker 2: (25:50)

So we ended up because I had no other work, um, through theater that we ended up doing that. And the people that have reached out to me because of this, it’s been incredible. Um, thanking, thanking me and telling me I’m brave, which I always kind of cringe a little bit because I’m like, I’m not brave. I’m just, you know, this is what I do, but, um, but that people have been affected and that people have been helped by it. That is my goal. You know, reading Danny Shapiro’s inheritance, like here’s my, the,  

Speaker 1: (26:20)

What’s the cat’s name, Chloe. Hi Chloe. Thank you for joining us here today. 

 Speaker 2: (26:26)

Do you want to talk? Um, but just the agency and telling your own story and sharing your origin story and that, that can help other people means the world to me, you know, and that, and that it could be something that could be a resource for somebody else at this point, you know, like the podcasts and articles. I mean, they’re still helpful. 

 Speaker 1: (26:48)

Yeah. I mean, it can just become a part of this, like ever expanding care package. Um, yeah. 

 Speaker 2: (26:56)

Cause our purpose, we have to use our lives and our traumas and our hurts to help people in order for us to heal too. So  

Speaker 1: (27:03)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that’s one of the older, I, well, let’s see, I’m kind of making that up, but I’m going to say it anyway. Well, it’s like an older tenant that has been, it’s kind of gone through the world of trauma over time is the healing through helping, you know, or the healing through telling. Um, and it just manifests in different ways through different communities, but it certainly has become huge in the NPE world as a, um, a form of connection and community and healing and helping and commiserating and laughing, you know, all those things, um, who we so healing it’s normal, right? Normalizing Chloe, Chloe. This is out of control.  

Speaker 2: (27:46)

One of the things, one of the best stories was, um, when I, when I had my first phone call with my brother, um, I was so careful. I didn’t want him to, uh, to have a bad opinion of his father because of this. And I said, you know, people do things when they’re in love. And I hope you’re not upset about that. And he sort of sniffed and went and he said, I think being the child of an affair is the most beautiful 

Speaker 1: (28:07)

Sort of, and that was shocking, right? You’re like, no Bohemian. Yeah, 

 Speaker 2: (28:16)

Totally. It like, he just opened his arms and said, you know, you are welcome and you were accepted. And that meant so much to me. 

Speaker 1: (28:23)

Yeah. So, wow. So powerful. So many people don’t get to have that. Right. So I consider myself very lucky.  

Speaker 2: (28:29)

We are all here for whatever, whatever your religious beliefs may be, you know, we’re here for something. And so the cat’s going to walk in  

Speaker 1: (28:40)

Chloe, Chloe wants to talk about her experience of living in house during all of this. She says, I don’t know my siblings, they were taken away. Yeah. She’s got her own traumas properly. Um, yeah. Wow. So, and your brother, where does he live? He’s in Texas. Okay. Yeah. At the time,  

Speaker 2: (29:00)

No, he had, uh, he was living in Europe, so it was all very exotic and strange.  

Speaker 1: (29:05)

Yeah. Of course. A year someone in Europe would say that a child of an affair is the most beautiful French. Yes. So continental. Very cool. Um, yeah. So, wow. This is really neat. And, and can you just talk a little bit, um, I know that it’s, it’s not necessarily directly related to, to this too, but it is because it’s who you are. Can you just talk a little bit about your music and what you like to sing? And I mean, you’ve got this whole, like row of instruments behind you. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, I, I love folk music and, um, and so anyway, just, can you just talk a little bit about that? Just, just humor me, humor me. I love talking about music. 

Speaker 2: (29:49)

That’s my real thing. So the NB thing, forget that musical theater. So, um, I started, I actually started in an opera partially because it drove my mother nuts because she hated opera. I just, I moved over to musical theater because I really wanted to act and not just stand there and park and bark, as we say. Um, and so I came to Chicago and was musical theater actress. And, uh, five years ago, maybe I was asked to audition for the Johnny Cash show, bring a fire. And I had just gotten a guitar, my first guitar, um, uh, and I could play three chords. So I’m like, I’m going to go audition for this and damned if they didn’t cast me in that show  

Speaker 1: (30:28)

And legit soprano.  

Speaker 2: (30:31)

And I had to learn how to sing country. And I absolutely fell in love with it. I fell in love with country and folk and I ended up doing not only a classic country album, but I got, uh, the Cohen grapple grant to make an auto harp album. So I actually have an autoharp  

Speaker 1: (30:50)

Who else can say that? Right. Um, so I have that. And then the first person I’ve ever met,  

Speaker 2: (30:55)

It’s so much fun though. I mean, it’s more than just that instrument that you play, you know, when you’re  

Speaker 1: (30:59)

In elementary school. Um,  

Speaker 2: (31:02)

So I did that. And then as a companion piece to the book, I’m actually recording an experimental folk album right now with a friend of mine, um, with the music that is interlaced through the book, but also the music that I eventually wrote as a reaction to the MPE discovery. So, so it’s kind of, it’s, it will go along with the book, but it’s also a companion piece, you know, and sort of an expansion of the experience.  

Speaker 1: (31:23)

Love it so much. 

 Speaker 2: (31:26)

Great. It’s I, music is such music is soothing. Music is definitely my, my first language. 

 Speaker 1: (31:35)

Yeah. And you got that from your mother, you think you, or you attribute her, her, she said she was a singer. 

 Speaker 2: (31:41)

He was a singer, but she hated it. So I never heard her sing just like I never heard of SAR paint, but, um, but my father, my biological father apparently was, um, quite the singer too. So it was interesting because Lee told me that one of his favorite songs was a Johnny Cash song that we did in the show. And that just kind of blew my mind. 

 Speaker 1: (32:01)

Like I want to say like the circles keep overlapping or something ripples continue to meet. Um, and you know, when you’re just, this is just, just a, a digression a little bit, but, um, when you said you, you’ve never heard your mother saying, I wonder if I know this exists, but I think that’s also something that’s a little bit of a generational, um, Devon divide or difference that we’re seeing more is that the older generation there was much more maybe, and maybe people do this still. I mean, like you’re a mother and I’m a mother, but this separation between who they are as young women or single women or individual women, and then who they are as mothers, there’s like a very thick line between those two things. And I think that, that, that, unfortunately it contributes to the confusion for lots of NPS, um, uh, and then for, you know, and then, and then it creates its own kind of, um, you know, or confusion or, or situation for those, those of us who are not doing that so much with our children. Um, there’s like a big, there’s a pretty big shift in that I think, um, in, I mean, I’m going to say society, American society. I don’t, I don’t know who I’m talking about, but I think my peer group, um, there isn’t so much in that, but I’m sure it exists still, but I think there was less sharing. I don’t know, back then, 

 Speaker 2: (33:26)

I think it’s generational too. I think for my mom, she was a singer, but she didn’t want to be a singer. She was in the girl group with her two sisters because her mother wanted that because they were actually really great was never what she wanted, wanted. My mother was, I love this discovery. This also makes me so happy. My mother was a rebel and I recognize myself because I’m the exact same way, you know, but I don’t think I realized how rebellious she was and after she died, I hear these stories of her and, you know, in her youth and she did whatever the hell she wanted. You know, she got married at 19 to get out of the group and away from her mother. And she got divorced when she wanted, she got divorced again. 

 Speaker 1: (34:10)

Yeah. Like she, yeah, I, I have a lot of that with my own mother where the more I sort of learned about her and write about her, it’s like, Oh, she was actually a wild feminist, but in the body, you know, in the, in the box of a pretty, pretty proper well-behaved Christian girl that like actually was doing a lot of, um, of really like, um, rebellious things. Yeah. That’s great. 

 Speaker 2: (34:34)

It’s hard for us, but we, you know, we put our parents in a box sometimes too. We think of them just as mothers and fathers and we don’t expect that they have sex and, you know, and there’s one thing I’m really curious actually about, uh, is with NPE. Is, is there a stigma? Do we have a stigma about sex? I don’t know if you want to talk about that at all, but, but like, because of the circumstances of our birth, are we subconsciously taught that sex is bad or because there’s shame around a conception necessarily, you know? 

 Speaker 1: (35:03)

Yeah. I do know. Yeah, no, I think sex is like totally. I mean the whole NPE, the NPE community, it’s so complex because it’s all about sex. We’re all, it’s all about sex. We all talk about and it’s all about our mothers having sex. Right. And it’s like, it’s all about sex and we never get, we never really, you know, and which is like, you know, a societal thing and a cultural thing. And, um, but like that sex is this kind of difficult topic to talk about in certain circles or it’s not okay. Talk about in some circles and it’s um, and then, and then your conception came from myriad at, you know, ways, but sacks and, um, yeah. It’s, I think it totally is a, is an isn’t not only like one of the layers, but one of the more important layers of the complexity of, of our experience 

 Speaker 2: (35:58)

And, you know, God forbid that a woman, actually, once  

Speaker 1: (36:03)

You imagine the mothers as like, I actually, um, I actually really one of the, one of the first, like in my early, early NPE days, it actually really moved me to think of my mother as having a lover like that. You know, it just like that added a nuance to her as a person that I had never conceived of or thought of, but, but it felt, I felt connected to it more, um, more connected to her, more as a human and a woman then, than I had before. And, um, I don’t think I can tell her that, but, um, but I’ll tell the world in a podcast. 

 Speaker 1: (36:49)

Yeah. My parents are alive. Um, they sometimes listen to the podcast, but sometimes don’t, um, it’s, uh, comes and goes for them and are they’re working through it, um, their own way and their own time. And, and I have to give them credit. Um, they are trying to support me really hard. They’re trying really hard. They’re doing their very best. They really want to support me and, and the project and, you know, I, and everything I’m doing, uh, and they always have been, so I’ve done a lot of projects in my life that they did not love. This is probably probably the most personal, I’ll be honest, this is the most personal for them, but, um, they have stayed consistent. So I have, I have to really give them credit for that. So here’s your chance say I’m proud of you, mom. I’m proud of you mom. 

 Speaker 1: (37:40)

Maybe this will be the one she listens to, right? Oh please. Oh, well, yeah. She also loves folk music. I get my love of folk music from her. Um, would you play anything? No, but that’s my on my, um, I used to, I used to have a project road, ask people what’s their one other thing they would be if they weren’t who they are now. And mine always was a singer song writer. I wanted to be, I wanted to be like Juul. I grew up in the era of, um, of all those like little affair women coming up. But, uh, yes, no, but I’d love to sing. My daughter loves to sing. I would love to be able to play the guitar. I understand the concept. Um, I didn’t start till 44, 45, so, well, it’s on my list when I turned 40, I like made this, this list of like, if, you know, if this is mid, the mid point, here’s all the things I would like to do. 

 Speaker 1: (38:34)

And, um, especially as my kids are just, my youngest is like year and a half. And so I’m just coming out of that bubble into like killing myself, feeling like myself again and starting to, to see a light kind of, I don’t want that to sound like I was in darkness, but Oh, I know what to mean. Exactly what I mean. And um, and so I’m it’s yeah, so I’m, it’s on my list of things to that. I really want to get to do it. I highly encourage it. I will get to that. Okay. That’s what I should start with. That’s what I should start with. It’s it’s insane. The amount of instruments I have now. So only, only the professionals. 

 Speaker 1: (39:18)

Thank you so much. I have one more question request. No pressure. Okay. Can you sing something for us right now? I could. Can you, can you give me a second? Yeah. I thought the only other option was that I could just, I could, I could doubt, you know, we’ll just play it down, download a recording, but, but I can’t hear you anymore. What’d you say? Oh yeah. You’re going to hear, I can hear you now though. Oh, I was just saying, if you had said no, I would have just asked if we could play something off one of your recorded pieces, but you can play great if you’re editing. Is it okay if I tune? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it. Do you say what’s the one thing that, uh, and that will kill a concert is a tuning your guitar. Learn to talk and do it at the same time. Right? I’m going to turn this down just so we don’t get any, hang on. Um, I’m not gonna play. Can I play Johnny Cash? Yeah. Do you know that? We love Johnny Cash at my house and our dog’s name? Johnny Cash. Are you kidding me? No, I’m not. We have a puppy upstairs named Johnny Cash. That’s crazy. See Johnny Cash in this house. Holy God. Okay. Yeah. 

 Speaker 6: (40:37)

Can you hear that? Okay. [inaudible] I fell in to a ring [inaudible] ring. I went down, down, down ring of fire. [inaudible] 

 Speaker 1: (41:26)

Didn’t warm up a bit. Thank you so much. I love it. Awesome. So wonderful. Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. And the perfect song. Perfect song. Oh, yes, of course. So sorry. I get very excited about Johnny Cash. So cash and June Carter were having an affair. 

 Speaker 2: (41:48)

The song was written and June Carter actually wrote that song,  

Speaker 1: (41:53)

But he gets all the kind of glory and credit, right. 

Speaker 2: (41:57)

Her sister, uh, I need a recorded at first and Johnny Cash had this dream when he was in a cave and on drugs and stuff that like, I hear mariachi trumpets. And that’s why his iconic version of it came about and wrote that for him because they were both married at the time that when they fell in love. So 

 Speaker 1: (42:14)

It’s got goosebumps again. Oh, that’s so wonderful. That’s good to know. Cool. Yeah, no, Johnny, we love Jenna cashier. My son actually wanted to be Johnny Cash for Halloween and it was a whole, yeah, it was a whole, we ended up not being done in cash because when you’re five, you go through a lot of ideas about Halloween that he went through this week of really talking with us about if he was going to be Johnny Cash or the actor Johnny Cash. Because when we looked up pictures, we had to explain who walking Phoenix was because of the movie. And, um, and it was this whole thing about the hair being slick oil, you know, oil back. And it was just so funny and we, and then he didn’t, he decided to be something else. But, um, yeah, we are huge. He’s still cool. Um, all right, let’s go on with our day. Thank you so much for spending some time with me. Is there anything else that I didn’t ask you that you wished I’d asked you or that you want to say to the NPE community? Can I mention my website, please do. Please do, please. So my website is called  

Speaker 2: (43:19)

Goodrich.com, which is C O R Y goodrich.com. But then there’s also folk song, book.com specifically about the book and that’s available on Amazon and I’m super proud of it. And I think it will be super helpful if, if you’re going through this, um, because you can see that somebody else’s as crazy as  

Speaker 1: (43:36)

You are the commiseration of crazy. I think it’s so important. It absolutely is. Oh, thank you so much. This is so great. I’ll make sure to have all the information about you up on the, on my, on my medias, the social media, so that people can access things and  

Speaker 2: (43:58)

Promote the heck out of you as well. So 

 Speaker 1: (44:00)

Great. And I think, um, yeah, and I th and I’ll definitely get your book and I’m going to get all this music. And, um, so, and I think we’ll be in touch. I have a suspicion that you and I are going to stay at, stay in touch. So 

 Speaker 2: (44:10)

I think so too, and I’m really excited for you to go, go get a guitar, so,  

Speaker 1: (44:14)

Okay. Do you have a latent singer song writer in you? Yeah, absolutely. Yup. Oh gosh. Thanks. Um, it’s like my husband’s worst nightmare. Oh, are you kidding mine too? I always ask. I don’t know why. I always, I mean, it sounds weird if I say I always ask him, but I, I have suggested before, like, what would you have done if when we met, if you would ask what I do when I said, like, I’m a singer song writer, but, um, but yeah, yeah, yeah. My weight and Sarah McLaughlin, Juul, uh, lost more flat. All those ladies that 

 Speaker 2: (44:52)

Doot doo doo doo doo doo doo. What does that, um, [inaudible] 

 Speaker 1: (45:01)

Oh, well this games Polish games. Yeah. That was like the first guitar song I learned. I sang that so often in voice lessons. Um, I’m not going to sing it right now. Um, I did it, but I know I’m, I’m working on one thing at a time I’m barely understand, or I’m confident about podcasting, so I will stop while I’m ahead today. Uh, all right. Thank you so much, Corey. I’m going to go ahead and, um, turn all of our recording off so that we can’t stop recording stop. And then Zen.