Who Cheated on Who?

Speaker 1: (00:27)

And I’m just gonna start recording just so that we have the tape going. We don’t have to worry about it. Probably we’ll edit it. Um, we don’t want to have all of our, like all of our chitchat included. Um, so I’m here with Denise. I’m in a library. We’re in a room. We were just discussing. We feel like we’re in a fishbowl. It’s kind of a glass glass study room in a library, but they’ve been kind enough to give it to us for two hours. So, um, we’re just going to talk about your experience, whether it’s like, whether you call it an NPE experience or a DNA discovery. What do you call it? How do you describe it to people? I’m a nightmare now. That’s, that’s okay too. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I wasn’t, um, my story is a little crazy because it actually started in 2009 when a girl came forward saying that my dad was her dad.

 Speaker 1: (01:23)

Okay. And, um, so yeah, I already have questions up to that point. Were your parents married? They’re still married, still married, but this girl came forward. And was she older or younger than you? Um, we are 21 days apart. Oh, okay. All right. I have a lot of questions that probably your mother and you had, so, okay. All right. So she came forward 2009 and said she wrote letters and um, said I might, I think I’m looking for Frank [inaudible] I’m going to say last name. And um, I believe he’s my father. And so I called my brother because I didn’t want to upset my mom. So she contacted you? She sent us letters. Should my brother got one? I got one. Apparently she had been sending them to everybody. Okay. Last name. Thorough. Being thorough. Okay. So, um, well she had been looking since she was 18, so, um, so, um, I called my brother, you know, cause I didn’t want to upset my mom and so we talked about it and then I decided to call her and so I called her and you know, I was listening to the story and I’m like, hey, you called the girl, not your mom, Debra the sister. 

Speaker 1: (02:52)

Okay. And, um, listen to her story and it was sounding like, you know, this the sounds like it could have happened. I was tracking. Yeah. So then my brother and I, we went to our parents and sat down and talked. My Dad denied it. Um, he, he just denied it. My mom was upset this, that, um, she wanted him to take a DNA test. A Debra. Debra did. Yeah. And he didn’t want to, so we were like ready to take his toothbrush, take you know, hair, whatever we could do to do it. So they did a straight paternity test and, um, they, it was an at home one though. And the results came back that he was not the father

 Speaker 2: (03:46)

and, oh, she was wrong. Well, no, but Phil can wait. Sorry. Sorry. What’s wrong?

 Speaker 1: (03:54)

So, um, and at this time, you know, I had talked to her a couple times and I, I felt really bad listening to how she grew up and, you know, I just, I felt bad, like I was drawn to her and, um, so it came back that she wasn’t, and you know, everything went on. And then I think I was

 Speaker 2: (04:16)

well, much to your Dad’s relief and conceived wife’s relief

 Speaker 1: (04:21)

at this time. He’s still denying that he never slept with her mother. So, because my parents, they were dating for nine years, they were getting ready to have a wedding and he had, um, he, they lived in Boston. Um, he was right out of school. They had a, um, he had a job offer in Boston and a job offer in la and he didn’t want to be in the snow, so he went down to la. So he was down here for a couple months before came back. So he met, you know, so came back and they got married the end of September. So, um, you know, so I just felt bad for her. So I, I don’t know what happened. I just heard, she popped into my head and it was like 2012 and 

Speaker 2: (05:14)

okay, so the DNA test said, or the paternity test said like, no, he’s not the dad. And you got, it was 99.99%, not the phone now. And so you just want, you guys were like, Oh, I’m so sorry. Continue on your journey. Yeah, we’ll all just go on with our lives. Okay. So 2012, three years later, yeah, you, 

Speaker 1: (05:30)

I opened Pandora’s box and I, um, messaged her and I’m like, did you ever find your dad? And she says, no, I still believe that he’s my dad. And I’m like, but you guys did a DNA test. She goes, I just, I just don’t know about that. And I’m like, if you want to buy a DNA test, I’ll take a DNA test. She lives in Albuquerque. So she was down on vacation. I met her up in Carlsbad. My brother wanted nothing to do with this. He’s like, I don’t, I’m not going to take it. He was happy to close that door. Yeah. So I went down better. My husband and I, and she resembled my cousins back east and I’m like, this is weird, you know. So did the DNA test, the results come back. We did 23 and me results come back and it says we’re not related. 

Speaker 1: (06:23)

So I’m like, you know, she goes, I just feel that he’s my dad. And I’m like, well, you need to move on because he’s not here, you have two tests. And I’m like, you’re going to have to like try to move on and figure it out, you know? And so that didn’t go very well cause then you know, there was, well I know your dad’s slept with my mom. And I’m like, right. Regardless if they slept together, you didn’t, you’re not, we’re not related. And I never opened up the [inaudible] part of my test. I just, you know, I wasn’t, I didn’t think anything of myself. So that was 2012 so off and on, I would check. I checked in and I think a little bit later because she had some names and I remember one of them was Kaputo and I was like, oh, did you find anybody?

 Speaker 1: (07:17)

You know? And it was like always, no, no, no. And then 2016 she started matching on ancestry with some of the family members on my dad’s side. So yeah. And she sent an email to me and she said, have you told frank that I’m matching up with his family? And I said, no, I have it. I said, I go, I don’t understand this. You know, we have two tests done and Dah, Dah, Dah. And you know, and then she said something, she goes, you know, I think you need to look at your, your results because I noticed you don’t have Italian in you. And I’m like, oh, that’s strange. You know, so I didn’t think anything of it. I’m like, one step ahead of you and realizing where this is going. Okay. So I was getting ready to have, I have in the past four years, I’ve had like three major operations, so I didn’t even open it. 

Speaker 1: (08:16)

And, um, I remember it was like 4th of July, 2016 and we’re going to my moms and I see this post from like my grandmother’s sister, she’s like in her nineties. And she goes, Carol, there’s a on fate, right on Facebook. There’s a girl saying that she’s spraying starr or Kate’s Katie’s granddaughter. And so I messaged her and I’m like, you know, we know who that is. Just don’t talk to her cause you know, we’ve done DNA, this and that. So he got there, I said something to my mom. And so, you know, my dad called my aunt and you know, cleared it up. Yeah. So moving on. So, um, this past June, so I was supposed to talk with her and then with the surgeries I couldn’t, so in June I, my husband, well my husband’s adopted and he was getting ready to do a DNA test to see if we could find out, you know, anything about him.

 Speaker 1: (09:16)

So I had like joined DNA detectives and adoption search, all these things. So I was like already looking in all this stuff. Well I seen this post on DNA detectives that she wrote and basically say searching for her in it or is it just came up and you saw it and you’re like, oh, there she is again. Yeah. And it, cause it was like, I think that somebody else took his, this test and it wasn’t him. And I was like, it was like, are you kidding me? You know, I’m like, what is wrong? And, um, so I write on their note, but there was two witnesses. It was him, you know, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah. And so I started looking into everything and then I go into mine and I see that I, I’m 50% Jewish and I’m like, you know, I’m just, I don’t even think at that point I was thinking he wasn’t my dad.

 Speaker 1: (10:14)

Um, like I told my husband and my best friend, she’s like, oh, Denise. She goes, do you know that DNA was done in 2012? You probably need to Redo it. And I’m like, this is, you know, just crazy. So it’s 4th of July, we’re up at my mom’s and I go in there and I go, mom, you know, my DNA tests came back and I goes, just looking at it and it says, I’m Jewish. I don’t have any Italian in me. And there was a whole bunch of people there, so she kind of, she didn’t say anything. She goes, that’s strange, you know? So, um, but otherwise she didn’t flinch. No. Like didn’t Pale or anything. Yeah. So August comes around and, um, my brother was taking my parents on like a week cruise with him and his family and I was watching the dog. So I go over there and I just have him say, I go, Scott, did you ever do that test, that DNA test?

 Speaker 1: (11:06)

He goes, yeah. And I said, I go, can I see it? I go, because mine just says that I don’t have Italian in me. He goes, oh, you’re just creating drama, you know? And I’m like, no, it really says that I don’t, I have, I’m half Jewish. I go, I have no Italian. I have mom, but no Italian. So I go, will you show me? Cause he did 23 of me, but he didn’t share his, he didn’t want his mom public. Yeah. So, um, we go up into the office, this is the Monday we go up in the office and I see he’s got the Italian and he’s got my mom and I’m just like, I’m like, Scott, I go, you realize what this means? He goes, oh, Denise, she came out of mom and I’m like, yeah, I know it came out of mom, but I don’t think he’s my dad.

 Speaker 1: (11:47)

He goes, Denise, you’re just this. Let’s just deal with this. When I come back and I go, when you come back, we’re going to share information. So this was on a Monday, so Friday comes and, um, my cousins were, how did you feel at that point? I, you know, I, in my, I was just thinking that maybe it was wrong, but then I’m like, you know, I don’t think it had sunk in yet cause I had like my girlfriend telling me, Oh, you need to Redo it. And I’m like, I’m not gonna Redo it. And even my brother, he’s messaging me that day on the cruise and he’s like, you need to order DNA tests. You need to retake it. Something’s wrong with yours, you know, this and that. So I guess the wheat that day, my mom had seen a text message and she thought it said, um, Dad’s not my dad.

 Speaker 1: (12:41)

And so she freaked out. And so my brother and his wife were sitting there, are you sure there’s no po? Could Denise have gotten switched at the hospital? Is there, you know? And she’s like, no, no, no. And I guess she was ended up, she was sick the whole week, so they came back Friday. Who is, who wouldn’t be sick the whole really? So Friday comes along and I had cousins out and I met them down in Santa Monica and the one cousin, she’s like my dad’s first cousin, but we called them aunt and uncle, so she had to give up the baby for adoption. So we’re sitting there talking and she goes, yeah, Michael ordered me this DNA kit and you know, like sent away and just doesn’t, I have this person come along and says, I’m her cousin. And I’m like, I didn’t know you when we were little, so I don’t know you now.

 Speaker 1: (13:30)

And I’m like, oh, what is her name? And so she goes digging it up and it’s Deborah and I’m like, oh my God. I’m like, okay. Some everywhere. Yeah. So it’s like, I’m like in my husband’s away. I’m like two and a half hours away from home and I have the kids in the car and they don’t know anything about this. And I’m like, just going crazy cause I need to talk to somebody. I didn’t tell my family about any of this cause I wanted, I wasn’t going to tell them right then. I did so, so I’m like, it’s fraught. So I get, I’m, you know, driving home and my cousin, I’ve called my husband and he’s like, I’m getting on the plane. I’m like, you’re not going to believe this. He goes, just let me guess Deborah. Yeah, he did. He did cause my like the week before, it was kind of funny. 

Speaker 1: (14:17)

I was, I kept talking about her and my friend goes, why are you so obsessed with Deborah? She goes, you get over this, you guys have done the DNA test. And I’m like, I don’t know what it is. I go, it’s just bothering me. And so, um, I’m calling my brother Friday night and he’s not answering. And so Saturday morning comes along and he’s not answering. So I’m tech, I’m like, share your results with me now. I’m like, come on. And so he’s still not answering. So I call my nephew, I go, will you please tell your dad to do what he needs? Yeah. So yeah, that’s funny. I bet he loved that. Well I guess my brother had come back that day in Saturday morning and he asked my mom one more time before. So he shared and it said we were half siblings and I just like, I couldn’t believe it.

 Speaker 1: (15:06)

And then my, I call my brother and he’s not even answering the phone and I’m like going crazy. I’m, I start crying. I’m like, what is going on? And so I’m like, we’re going over there and my is so my husband comes with me cause my mom watches my brother’s kids Thursday and Friday. So we go down there and I walk in like we need to talk. She goes, I don’t want to hear Debra’s name one more time. Nice pick up Deborah. I go, this isn’t about Deborah, this is about me. And she goes, what are you talking about? I go, mom, why did my DNA just come? I go, we, Scott and I are half siblings. She goes, I want to see the Snyder and understand what you’re saying. And so I see her getting like panicky. And then, um, my husband’s like, mom did, is there a chance?

 Speaker 1: (15:51)

And she’s like, can you give me a minute? I want to see this. And so then she’s looking, I’m trying to show her this and she really doesn’t know what she’s looking at. And he’s like, mom, is there a chance? And she goes, yes, there might be a chance. And I’m like, what? You know, I’m like, you’re this. I’m just in shock because I never ever expected that this was just not on even on your radar. It wasn’t, I mean, it just wasn’t the only, I mean, when I was a kid, I always asked where my freckles came from because they didn’t have freckles. And I’m like, you know, I have freckles and you know, I had light, real light, freckles, I guess. So, um, she blurts out I was raped. And so then I start really getting upset, right? So that’s a darkness. And I go in the other even considered that, no, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t tell her.

 Speaker 1: (16:49)

And she felt like we were, so I go running into the bathroom cause like, my brother’s kids are outside and I’m just like going, oh my God, she was raped. And Bill’s like my husband bill. He’s like, why did you just talk to her like that? He goes, you don’t need to talk to her like that. And she’s like, you don’t need to be here. And he’s like, she’s my wife. Yes, I need to be here and you don’t need to talk like that. So then I come back out and I’m like, Bill, stop yelling at her, you know, and I’m still sitting here crying hysterically. And, um, she goes, I go, I go. She goes, no, I wasn’t raped. And I’m like, why would you say you were raped? So she brings me in the other room and she’s hysterical. And she’s like, Denise, she goes, I swear to you I was not raped.

 Speaker 1: (17:36)

And I’m like, she goes, I just felt like you guys were, um, you know, on top of me you like, right. Or you’re too fast, too serious. I’m just, cause you know, once I heard rape, everything else just going out the window, I’m not defending her. Yeah. I’m like, Hey, cause you know, I’m just like, I can’t believe that she would, that she still had me. And you know, I’m wondering if in my head, I’m thinking if every time she looks at me as she’s seeing a scar, I mean millions of questions. So I’m, we go in the room and she’s all, she goes, I, she goes, his name was Michael and it was, she goes, he worked at your uncle’s bar, cause a bartender and one night your aunt wanted to stay with your uncle for a little bit longer and you know, Dah, Dah, Dah.

 Speaker 1: (18:25)

And it was the one night thing, one thing led to another. And I’m just like, I’m just Florida sexy bartenders. I don’t know. So in Boston, in Boston, yeah. So, um, I’m just, I’m in shock. I don’t even know what to say, but I keep having this rape thing in my head, you know? And so she’s, no, he was a gentleman and you know, told me afterwards that if you know, if your ended up pregnant, I can’t marry you but I’m in. She goes, I don’t, I’m not pregnant. And she goes, I’m getting married. She knows. She’s like, you know, I’m not going to be pregnant. So you know, so I’m just like, so she tells me that she had told my dad about her. Oh. So that, let me, so she had told my dad before that she had this one night stand cause she didn’t want any lies.

 Speaker 1: (19:23)

He tells me she, they got married, she had had a period and she didn’t think anything of it. And I’m just like, even when I was, I mean you didn’t think anything cause I mean she’s like no. So you know, I don’t know whether to believe her or not. And because there’s no way to know. There’s just no way to really know. No. Cause you know, the only people that know is her hand and God, I mean that’s it. You know the people that were there. So, um, I was so then my dad comes in, he doesn’t even know what’s going on. He thinks it’s about Deborah. And then I’m like, yeah, he’s like, oh, I didn’t step in your life. It was just, it’s so, um, I’m like, I told my brother, I said, you need to share your DNA with her. So then my quest at that minute was I was more concerned about her than I was about myself cause I think I was still in shock.

 Speaker 1: (20:23)

Yeah. Now that might’ve just been an easier concept. So in my head, I’m going, cause once my cousin had matched with her, I’m like, either he’s covering for somebody. Cause like I said, he, she looked like my uncle’s kids. Okay. And my brother and I, we didn’t, you know, we have Irish in English, so we didn’t really, we didn’t look like our cousins from back east, you know. So, um, we looked more like my mom’s side of the family. So, um, I was like on this crusade for that, that as far as she told me, my, the only, there was only one other possibilities. His name was Michael didn’t have the last name.

 Speaker 2: (21:05)

And your brother’s like at work during all this? Or did he come home? Um, he was out doing stuff when he was Saturday. Yeah. But he was not home. He was not home. So this is all happening in his house, but he doesn’t, the kids are off. He’s like at home depot, we’re telling him

 Speaker 1: (21:20)

go, you know, stay out there. So, you know, I went into a separate room, so my dad were just like, you know, you need to come clean. You know, we’re back to Deborah. You need to come clean. And it was just, it was just, that day was like all, so I remember, you know, I just went home. 

Speaker 2: (21:37)

This was in 2016. This was 2000 when this just happened. It was this past August, 2018 so not even a year ago. Okay. All right. Caught up. So this is, this is fresh for you. Okay.

 Speaker 1: (21:48)

Yeah. So, um, she’s telling me, you know, we’ll find him and I’ll go with you and I’m going to be right by your side. And I’m like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don’t know if I even want to meet this person. I go, how do we even know if we’re gonna find him? I go, you don’t even know his last name. She’s like, I’m going to call your uncle and you know, see if he can remember and I’m, you know, so, um, we go home and I’m just like, I had to basically lock my door because we’re in like a small place. I got four kids at the house. They can see, I mean my eye.

 Speaker 2: (22:21)

That’s enough. I’m sorry. Uh, did your, so did your dad that raised you, did he know at this point between, I mean at the house when you said he came in, did he,

 Speaker 1: (22:34)

I th I, you know, he, it was all, I didn’t sleep with her.

 Speaker 2: (22:38)

Oh. Cause he was focused on thinking this was about Deborah. Right. Okay. Here hearing problems,

 Speaker 1: (22:44)

we’ll be talking about something and all of a sudden something comes out of his mouth and you’re like, what conversation are you in? So I don’t, he didn’t even realize it, but then, you know, my mom’s trying to tell him, but then my mom told me while we were in that room, she said, I seen this text this week and I went to your she, she said, well, in June, July she went to my dad and said, Denise’s DNA didn’t come out with Italian. He goes, what are you talking about? She acts just like my mother. She has to be mine. And he didn’t want to do a DNA test. She goes, we need to do a DNA test. And he thought that she was tricking him cause of death. I know. And so, so, um, so that was July. So this week they’re on the cruise. She went back to the cruise room, the room, and she’s like, oh my God, Frank’s, I’ve just got, you know, some that she’s, Scott knows now.

 Speaker 1: (23:39)

And she didn’t want to tell my brother anything until she told me first. You know, that’s considered it. That makes sense to me. So I like that. I said, I went home, apparently when my brother got back, they went upstairs and they were trying to Google this Michael and nothing was coming up. And then I’m just Michael Boston bartender. Yeah. And, um, I’m just like, you need to share your DNA with Debra. And he didn’t want to at first, I’m like, no, you need to do it. And my mom’s like, no, just do it because you know, we need to figure this out because obviously either he’s covering for somebody, cause we’re like, maybe one of the uncles came down, you know? And so he share, I called her and I said, Scott’s gonna share with you that it came out half siblings. So yeah. So, um, it, you know, so we’re now experiencing somebody coming in and then me looking for this and my, it’s just, um, my dad was like, you know, I don’t think you need to go find anybody.

 Speaker 1: (24:43)

And I’m like, Dad, I go, I need to see a picture of this person. You know, I, I need to try. He goes, yeah, but you have your family. And I’m like, I know, you know, but at the time when he’s saying this to me, I couldn’t even look at my dad for a long time without crying. I was just so sad and I just felt like I was hurting him even though I didn’t do anything. But I just felt, you know, so my mom actually bought the ancestry kit for me, sent it in. Um, it came back like September 15th, I think it was a Friday. My results came in. And um, so I start going and trying to look and I’m looking for Michael and I’m like on this other side. So I go on the DNA detectives page. Okay. And had, and had you and your dad still wasn’t coming cleaned even though Scott and Debra came up as she said, you might as well come clean.

 Speaker 1: (25:39)

And he’s like, he’s like, Whoa, mom didn’t say anything. So they had gone home and he, I guess said to my mom, let’s go have a drink. And she said, I’m not going to have a drink with you until you want to tell me the truth. And I guess then he broke down to her and said, yeah, I did sleep with her and you know, but I didn’t know about her. And he goes, I didn’t know this, you know, and he goes, I was so afraid of losing you. And um, so they’ve, okay, they’ve been, there’s getting ready to celebrate their 50th and they’ve been together forever and they both had an indiscretion during this two month break. Yeah. That’s young people. Okay. I know when they both ended up with pregnancies, it’s crazy. That is kind of crazy. And centering, how miraculous a pregnancy is.

 Speaker 1: (26:27)

Oh boy. Oh Man. Okay. Yeah. So it, he, you know, he had, he, you know, broke down and then he wanted to, when he, they came back the following week and, um, he had called me up and he want to talk me. So we went up and we were talking alone and it was just, it was hard. And you know, he’s apologizing saying, this is all my fault and this and that. And my question to him was, what did you do to that DNA test that you took? And he’s like, Denise can do anything because your mom and Scott were there. I wasn’t there cause that’s what I was thinking. He did something to the DNA test, but he was, you know, come to find out, um, well he’s a heavy smoker. He had gotten, he had a meeting, he had drank, you know, ate and came home and the test was there.

 Speaker 1: (27:14)

My mom wanted it done. So they did the test. So that’s the only thing we can think, cause it didn’t come back like inconclusive or it just came back. And when you go and you read, you know, they’re saying people that smoke heavily or, and you’re not supposed to eat. Oh, okay. So smoking can be a thing that messes up the results I guess. And well that’s what it says. They don’t want you doing anything like that. Half an hour to whatever. Be Like, Oh okay, I didn’t know that. And just, yeah, when you take [inaudible] they don’t want you to drink anything, eat anything they want you to for at least 30 minutes before eating and just did it. Yeah. Wow. So maybe that’s, and he hasn’t done it again since no, because Scott came up with, right. I mean it doesn’t need to. Yeah. So, um, yeah.

 Speaker 1: (27:56)

So you know, he, he just said to me, he’s like, you know, nothing’s going to change your still your mind number one. And I’m just like, you know, I still couldn’t look at them. It’s just like was, I don’t know. I felt so heartbroken and my mom and I, we have a, we’re a really close family. That’s why I just didn’t even see this coming. I mean it was such a shock cause they had dated for so long and it was like, it was more accepting having her coming. Then it was looked like with finding out the surprise about myself. It was just, um,

 Speaker 3: (28:31)

yeah,

 Speaker 1: (28:31)

shock. I mean, how that is left field. Yeah. I was, I just never, ever would have thought I wasn’t treated any differently. I was loved. I was, are you being, you know, and my mom and I are so close, so this is killing us right now. I’m just going to ask you the next, it’s hard. My last question was what’s your relationship like with your mom right now it’s been, we have ups and downs in the beginning. Um, it was just, she would tell it, you know, I, you need there, you need to get over this and I know how you feel. And I’m like, you need to stop telling me, you know how I feel because you don’t know how it no, I do. And I’m like, no you don’t. And I’m like, I, I pretty, if she knew how you sell, she wouldn’t suggest to get over it.

 Speaker 1: (29:17)

Yeah. Well she knew. I mean it’s okay. I don’t even know. I don’t know. It just, you know, I didn’t, I don’t even think I talked to her, cause usually we talk couple of times a day and we see each other every week. And I had delay back away and then, um, but it didn’t last for long because I can’t, you know, my brother was like, you know, Denise, they’re older and you know, we don’t know how long they have. And then he was like, I wish this would have happened to me. And I’m like, well, that wouldn’t have been good because they were married when they had yeah.

 Speaker 2: (29:51)

You know, so thanks. But no thanks Scott. He goes, I couldn’t handle 

Speaker 1: (29:55)

that better. And I’m like, I go, you say that, but you don’t really know how this feels. I felt like, you know, my eye, but I didn’t have any feelings towards this. Michael Nun and I, you know,

 Speaker 2: (30:08)

your identity has been whipped out, but the replacement, there’s no like replacement

 Speaker 1: (30:12)

the Tim or longing. Yeah. I didn’t have a, I just wanted to see his picture and um, it, I still don’t have, I don’t even think, I think because I had such a great dab that I’d not missing that. Whereas Deborah didn’t have a father figure growing up and her mom was, you know, in the beginning wasn’t so great. So, um, you know, I think that’s why I don’t feel this towards Dan, but plus what I found, well come to find out, I’m looking for a Michael and that’s not even his,

 Speaker 2: (30:51)

yeah, mom. Well I was looking 

Speaker 1: (30:54)

kicking in the wrong direction for this Michael, cause you know, I wanted to see it and um, so I got a search angel to help me and like within 24 hours she had my, she had me matching with this ingle family and I’m like, mom, are you sure? His name was Michael [inaudible]. She, I called her like three times and asked her, she’s like, yes, his name was Michael. So my search angel’s like you need to order the death records cause there’s only one Michael that I’m finding. So I had a second cousin pop up and I was afraid he was an attorney and I was afraid to mess the chin, but I did on that Sunday and I was getting ready to order the death certificates of this, of one of the, the women in that section that could add, they had, they had remarried and how to Sunday Michael. So, and, um, he, I go, I, I, I just messaged him saying, I think, you know, we might be related through Michael. And he goes, well, can you tell me more details? So I’m telling him 1969 and revere beach at a bar. He goes, well, I was too young for the establishment then he goes, but I did have a cousin named Michael, but his real, his legal name is Myron and I’m like, 

Speaker 2: (32:08)

yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So maybe not so far off that she would remember Michael, but he went by Michael. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. You’re forgiven mom. Yes.

Speaker 1: (32:19)

Um, I’m like as the ally and he’s like, no, he passed away in 2007. And, um, I go, do you have any pictures of him? Cause I just want to see a picture. And he’s like, if I find any then I’ll let you know. So later that Monday, all of a sudden I get a message from if this is the person talked to so and so, um, I’m Michael Son, so we met, we’re messaging and he lives in Japan. And um, he, um, he’s messaging me and then he wanted to talk to me. So we just like did a Facebook talk with Nate and he’s telling me and he’s like, I hope there’s no tears there. He goes, you know, he wasn’t that great, you know, and I’m like, he wasn’t in my life. And we have an older brother and sister, but I didn’t know about them until 2016. 

Speaker 1: (33:10)

Oh, okay. So, yeah, so there’s two older siblings and then I would be his third. And then Michael’s the, the, the fourth, the youngest. He was active. Yeah, he was active as a bartender on the beach, I guess. Yeah. And I guess like the family, they keep secrets and you know, and basically everybody on that side, it’s kind of gone that would have any answers. So I’ve been talking to Michael and my half brother, his results came in. Um, I think it was like right before thanksgiving. And it was so funny cause when it came in, cause this other person that I was waiting for the death certificate, um, you know my search, she had everything, like everybody’s Facebook profile and it was like she was the f I’m like, how did you get off this? Like, oh man. So I’m looking and there was this picture of this little girl and she looked like me when I was younger. 

Speaker 1: (34:04)

And then two of his grandsons looked like two of my boys. And I’m like, this has to be him. And I was kinda hoping for that one, cause I’m listening to this, you know, and I’m like, oh, I just, you know, I would have liked him to hear him that he was, you know, I mean, I can’t say cause I don’t know him and I have, I’d never met him and I’m just hearing from him and I don’t have contact with the other two siblings. The one, the older brother, the first one, he lives actually in Hollywood, like Pisa hour away from me. And, um, he finally just one of your siblings? Siblings? Yeah, from the biological father. From Myron. I call him Myron. I don’t refer to him as my, I can’t, I just don’t, I, you know, it’s different for every single person. It is because I, you know, and the nice that [inaudible] should I be having feelings? 

Speaker 1: (34:59)

And I’m like, I just don’t, I don’t. So, um, I don’t think there’s any shuts. And I know, so, you know, it’s, it’s been, it’s been difficult, but I’m trying to take it as the blessing is that I’ve met Michael. He’s excited. He’s coming out in June [inaudible] Japan. Oh, cool. Yeah. He wasn’t supposed to come this summer, but now because of this, he’s coming. And he did, he grew up in the Boston area. He grew up in Boston and then he graduated and moved there. Like quitting. He was 22 he just slept cause he was like shipped around from house to house. And I’m from family to family. So he, he only lived with Myron for about three years. Okay. So he was close with him either. Interesting. Yeah. So that’s what I’m saying. It’s like I got really lucky. Really lucky how I was raised.

 Speaker 1: (35:53)

Yeah. So wow. You don’t even know until you see all the other possibilities. Yeah. Cause the other two don’t. They like when he passed away, they didn’t even go to the funeral. And that’s like when Michael found out. But the Jewish side of the family, they were prejudice because Michael’s half black. So that was a big thing because everybody in that family only dated Jewish people and apparently Myron was equal opportunity. So you know, he didn’t, he didn’t keep it. And when you look at a picture of him, he looks like this, like an Italian bad boy. He does it, you know my does. He does. And then I looked at him and I was like looking at their pictures and there’s like, I have no real, I don’t resemble them at all. Huh? So that’s like no answer to the freckles. Yeah. When I got that DNA back and it said that we were, you know, siblings, the first person I want to talk to is my dad. So I went over and talked to my dad and we had like a talk for over an hour and then like that’s when I realized that, you know what, he’s fine. He just wants me to be fine. You know, like we’re always like huggy, feely tight. But like when this first happened, I could just, even now when they hugged me like they just like I, they don’t, they don’t let go for awhile, you know? So,

 Speaker 2: (37:11)

yeah, I think it’s really scary for the parents, regardless of their personal, whatever their story is from a, from a secrecy place or a shame place or I think that, I think that their fears that they’re gonna lose their kid is, I think that’s really real. I don’t know. I would like some parents to come talk to me, but I think that’s the fear is that you’re gonna probably just be like, well, I’m in my friend’s family now. Goodbye. 

Speaker 1: (37:41)

Yeah, well now there are none of them. They don’t, none of like everybody’s gone. And um, obviously with Michael, he’s, you know, just turned 46 and he just found out about the other two, two, you know, when they, you know, it’s so secret, secret, secret,

 Speaker 2: (38:02)

so many secrets and it just blows open your understanding of family on so many. Like I keep saying, I’ve said this so many times today, but like on so many levels, like I don’t know how to, it’s just, it’s just tangled and layered and your understanding of what family means.

 Speaker 1: (38:22)

No ma’am. I think, I think no matter what you think, you believe it gets pretty shattered. Yeah. I mean, cause you know, you don’t expect, especially like I n my they had, they still have, they have such a great relationship and I never seen anything that would like, you know, I just, you know, you and you look up to them because then I, you know, I go back from, I don’t hate my mom. I don’t, I’m, I’m disappointed. I feel like she, when I went to her and said that in July, I feel like she had opportunities to come to me, but I don’t think she, I don’t know. She obviously, you know. 

Speaker 2: (39:02)

Right. And think about how many years it had been. 

Speaker 1: (39:05)

And 

Speaker 2: (39:07)

I don’t know. I like to fight. I mean, I like to think that I would handle it differently, but I don’t, 

Speaker 1: (39:14)

I don’t know. Yeah. It’s like with my husband being adopted, his mom, you know, never wanted to tell him anything about, wouldn’t tell us anything about the adoption, this and that. And like we had a little health issues in the beginning with my daughter. And, um, I would like, we’d go to her and beggar her and she wouldn’t say anything. But this whole time I thought, oh, I know my half, you know, and now I know, I know a quarter and now you know what I’m finding out isn’t so great. So now I’m like, I’m telling my husband, I’m like, I, you needed, he goes, I’m not doing this dad.

 Speaker 2: (39:45)

No. It’s like if you were the example of what can happen, I would rather not participate.

 Speaker 1: (39:52)

Well, he’s so funny because he’s come to our meetings because it was, he’s come to the side group meetings that we have with our NP. And um, it was funny cause I was wa I had never watched like those morning shows and I turned on the TV and it was, um, I think it was, I said, good morning. It wasn’t good morning. I can’t think of which one it was, but, and this was on Catherine was on there. So I was like, oh, so then that’s when I, you know, so he just realized like on our second meeting that he wasn’t an NPE. I go, no, you know,

 Speaker 2: (40:29)

no, but it’s when it’s a surprise, that’s the element. Right.

 Speaker 1: (40:34)

Tell him I go, Bill, you knew that you were adopted. I didn’t know this. This is different. Well, it really is. And I’m like, yeah, but it is. But with him, he’s been really supportive and with him going to the meetings and stuff, he hears like everyone else talking and you know how we feel. And so that’s been,

 Speaker 2: (40:53)

that’s great. Yeah. Yeah. That’s probably something more partners could do. I don’t want to say what anyone should do, but yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Something to think about. 

Speaker 1: (41:02)

Yeah. It’s been good. Yeah. You know, have bad times. I mean, the holidays were really bad. Yeah. We had stuff that popped up that wasn’t good. So, um, you know, and then that’s when my emotions go and I’ve just, I had to tell my family, I’m like, look, if I’m emotional, just let me be emotional and I have to deal with it my way. If I’m not bothering anybody, it shouldn’t affect you. Right. So that’s a, that was something my friend, she goes, you didn’t have to explain anybody. How you feel? I go, I don’t even know what I’m trying to explain.

 Speaker 2: (41:36)

Wayne. Yeah, you’re like, I don’t know either how I’m trying to, how I feel.

 Speaker 1: (41:39)

You don’t have to tell anybody but how, you know, I’m like, but I feel I go, I don’t even know what I’m trying to explain. Just like you don’t know anybody, an explanation. And I like really helped. And then I like relayed that message to my mom. Then it seemed like, you know, everything was good and then, you know, just we weren’t, I haven’t told everybody yet. I’ve only told certain amount of friends, but I know when I’m, because Deborah came in, she came out in September and met the family and then they came her, she came back and for Thanksgiving. Um,

 Speaker 2: (42:15)

yeah. So she’s in the mix of course. I mean, of course she’s been a part of this podcast the whole time, but um, okay, so she, she’s still in the mix. So there is like, it’s almost like, um, overlapping circles like, or something of like you’re going through your experience and your discovery. She’s going through her discovery and your parents are going through a discovery and then your brother is also having his own experience of, of we’re all learning about who his parents really are.

 Speaker 1: (42:46)

So it’s like, you know, we’re all experiencing different things. So, you know, when I see other people writing or whatever, like about how when they see the family, their biological family and pictures, then I’m like, oh, she probably feels like this. But then, you know, I had to actually tell her I needed to take a step back from her.

 Speaker 2: (43:08)

That makes sense to me. You go through my stuff and um, and she knows now that her journey, like her, her adventure, like exposed yours.

 Speaker 1: (43:18)

Well I had said to her, I go, you know, cause I feel like an idiot that I didn’t open this up in 2012 cause I could’ve solved this sleigh back then, you know, for her. And I go, why didn’t you tell me? I go, you know, I had to go back into emails and like read what was written. And I was like, how did I miss this? But I had, like I said, I had had many surgeries like right when she had contacted me in 2009 I had just had a knee replacement and I got, you know, I wasn’t doing well.

 Speaker 2: (43:48)

Well, like life is still happening during all of this. That has been, my experience is like life is still happening. You can’t just stop everything. So far I have not been able to stop anything to, to refocus everything, every can’t stop any, anything to refocus everything onto, onto this, this new chapter that you weren’t even asking for. Um, yeah. And you have your fan, you have family, you have kids, you have your life, you have your job. Like, um, yeah, I really relate to feeling like, I don’t know that I can, I mean it sounds, maybe it sounds too, um, flippant, but it’s like almost, I don’t have time right now. Yeah. I mean,

 Speaker 1: (44:32)

I, I have had, well, you know, they, we were having this like big Thanksgiving and we were over like the night before at my brother’s and her and my sister in law start talking about the DNA test. Right. And we’re still fresh and we, I didn’t want this brought up because I had to, well my brother didn’t want to tell the kids and my mom was worried that my kids were gonna think of them differently. I’m like, you’re still, and I was so upset. I had to tell my kid, my friends, all Denise you to tell them because if they hear this, you know, on this side, then, well they were like devastated your kids. They were devastated because they, I, you know, I had to tell them about her coming in and then this happening to me and they were like, he’s not my grampy. And I’m like, he’s his, you’re grumpy.

 Speaker 1: (45:21)

I go, he is, he’s my dad. He is your grampy. Nothing’s going to change. And you know, so my brother has six, I have four. So he told his three, oh, I just said I have to tell my kids and you know, our kids are going to talk, so you need to let your kids know. So the three younger ones don’t know about me. But then, you know, then the questions come like his nine year old. How did all the sudden we get another aunt? Well she lived in a diverse state, so you know, and, and they’re like confused. So they’re really gonna be confused when they see, um, my brother come out. Right. So, you know, oh my gosh, yes. So it’s, you know, it’s been, it’s been hard. But I had, like I said, I had to take a step back and there’s been like a couple things.

 Speaker 1: (46:06)

I don’t think Deborah means it, but like she even asked me if I was one time she asked me if I was going to change my name and I said change my name to what? And she said, your mom’s maiden name. I go, well why would I do that? And that really upset me cause like I told him, I told him, I see those discussions and I’m like, I, and that seems, um, I also am sensitive to that idea cause I was, well she said my mom’s maiden name, I was like, you know, wait a second. No, I, my, you know, [inaudible] is my last name and I’m not changing it. Cause if she would ask me if I was going to angle, then I would be like, you know, but that, and so I’m telling my mom and they kinda got upset about that and I just said, okay, well if there’s any more of these ms towns then I’m done.

 Speaker 1: (46:51)

I go, you guys can out of your relationship. I don’t need to be involved. I go, I cause it. To me, I feel like I’m being like, like I feel like I took away her life even though her mother, if she knew or I don’t think she really knew who the father was in the beginning, but she could have put him on the birth certificate. You know what I mean? The state could have went after him. I mean they could have found if you know, there could have been something. You feel like it affected Debra’s life. That’s what you’re saying. Well, I feel like, because I know when she came out and she seen our family the first time, she was like, this is the family. I always just, Oh, oh that’s hard. Yeah. So I feel, I feel guilty. It’s like the other day I was posting a picture.

 Speaker 1: (47:38)

I feel guilty just from 2012. I just feel guilty for the whole thing. The whole across. She grew up and like didn’t know my dad, you know, as a kid and didn’t have that experience, didn’t have a male in her life, you know, didn’t have a dad. And so that makes me feel bad. It’s just like listening to Michael’s story. I feel bad for him, you know? And that’s just my nature. But um, I just felt like just some of these things that have been said from her, I just feel like almost like, I don’t know, it’s probably, I’m just very sensitive I guess. But I feel like, I don’t know if I’m getting, like, if it’s like this a sarcastic remark that she’s make or she’s trying to be sly because we always really got along and now it’s like I’m very like reserved now with her. So, cause I, I had to just take my step back.

 Speaker 2: (48:31)

Yeah. Well, I think that’s something that, that it has to be said that people like everyone, it seems like, like all the people that come into these situations, like you’re all are, we all are all really different people with really different understandings of what is okay and what is not. Okay. And what is an okay thing to ask or what is, what makes perfect sense, right. What’s, you know, lots of people are discussing the name change thing, um, which just didn’t even occur to me and you know, but like I but there’s some people that’s like the first thing they think of. So you just have to remember that like, I don’t know, everybody’s coming from different walks of life. It’s so,

 Speaker 1: (49:15)

well she she um, diverse. Yeah, she um, actually cause she goes by her mom’s name and she, cause she’s not married, but she has a son and a partner. And um, so she put all of a sudden the scene, Debra d Yvonne’s, that was weird seeing that. Like she put it in her face look thing. She changed her last name just on Facebook. She, okay. Debra d Alonzo. Then her last name her when that she was given. But it just, it’s kind of weird to see.

 Speaker 2: (49:41)

So for her it was like maybe completing a missing piece.

 Speaker 1: (49:44)

Definitely. Cause she had been searched for forever. Yeah. Mom told her when she was 18 apparently she had come to the house when we were 18 when she was 18. Oh Wow. And so, but nothing like it never was pursued. Cause in my head I was like, Oh dad, this test would have just came out. I would have never have had to know. But you know that, I mean, that’s why I say my blessing is having Michael and, you know, I guess, you know, I have to, and my kids, I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for that, you know, I wouldn’t have my family right now. Absolutely. My kids and for the world. So, you know, they’re, they’re just having, you know, it’s just, it’s hard because we’re seeing it from all aspects. When I listen to somebody going in and not having a good experience like I can see, you know, but it’s like, you know, it’s like what you said that everybody’s different and you know, we’ve all been raised differently and you know, it’s just, it’s

 Speaker 2: (50:44)

step one. So for you, cause you’re still pretty fresh in this, um, less than a year, what do you feel like there was a, there, there is advice that you would give somebody that just found out or something that you wished someone had said to you?

 Speaker 1: (51:02)

I just think that my biggest thing that I’ve learned from this is that you need to take a step back first before and really, I mean I’m still processing, but I feel like you need to take a step back and like think before you just go react. But I would have, I mean I would’ve liked my mom to come to me. You know, that’s just the whole big disappointment. I just think people need to be aware when they take this DNA test. Cause like I didn’t take it for fun, so,

 Speaker 2: (51:38)

Oh yeah. You didn’t even take it for fun. I did it to hell. My God. Your surprise was like,

 Speaker 1: (51:43)

yeah, you didn’t even, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So wild. Yeah. Wow.

 Speaker 2: (51:55)

That is so interesting. Okay. Well, thank you so much for sharing the story. I really hope, I mean, I actually know that it will help people, but um, yeah, and I also really hope for you that you, especially with your relationship with your mom gets more, um, peaceful for you, that you, with time, the, you guys find that find a place, um, find a place in the middle. But yeah, not, not a single story has been the same. And you, you wind today for sure. It’s not a contest. It’s not a contest, but really interesting. Okay, let’s, I’m gonna turn this off.